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  • Good post Lewis. Are you familiar with David Graeber? He's an anarchist anthropologist (a real anarchist, not this silly Ron Paul stuff). In his book Debt: The First 5000 Years he describes the French conquest of Madagascar. Before the French, the people of Madagascar were small substince farmers, woodsmen, hunters, fishermen, etc.... The French wanted to turn the island into a plantation (of course) but to do that they needed an army. To pay the soldiers they introduced a script. But nobody wanted the script because nobody accepted the script for goods/services. So the French taxed the locals, payable in the script. The people then needed the script to pay their taxes and began to accept it from the soldiers.

    The point of all this is that the French government created a market economy. It's always been so. Why the government should do this -- dole out and protect private property, issue currency, enforce contracts, etc... but not provide for the poor takes some real screwed up thinking. You have to make the first premise "natural" and the second "unnatural".

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    • Originally posted by diene View Post
      Oh, please. I don't really agree with you analogy--it grossly oversimplifies things. But, if we're going to use this grossly simplified analogy, then most people in the government are wolves. Sure, there may be a few good people there who are trying to do good, but the vast majority of politicians are vicious, drooling wolves. And, you, Wilton, is a sheep. You're a sheep because you believe that these wolves are there to help you. Instead, all they see when they look at you is dinner.

      In this life, everyone has a choice. Either keep your head in the sand and baaaaah like a sheep, or open your eyes and see the world for what it is.
      The analogy is about power/authority. Most people are taught to hate power. They can't even imagine why anyone would need it, want it, or what anyone would do with it. You are the one who hates power because if you didn't, you would understand your options don't include the "no one has any ultimate authority" option.

      Diene, you're a lawyer? I'm surprised that you can't approach this coldly.
      Last edited by wiltondeportes; 10-02-2013, 12:56 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
        Wilton can you tell us about your relationship with your mother? In all friendliness, you sound real childish and "resource-hoarder-appeasing/but I'm! a good boy mommy" to me. I remember making your arguments and feeling like you do now when I was a teenager, and have since realized that it was a means of defending my mother's own ludicrous faith in the system and desire that her children enter it with some prestige in her honor like.
        You're a deluded drug abuser.

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        • Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
          In all friendliness, you sound real childish and "resource-hoarder-appeasing/but I'm! a good boy mommy" to me.
          In all friendliness? Hahahahahaha.

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          • Originally posted by Rojo View Post
            Everything from the Bill of Rights to local zoning laws.
            Ok, but how do those check the Weitko mindset? Maybe we're misunderstanding each other. I specifically meant that there were a lack of checks and balances with regards to arrogant, ignorant consumption of resource.

            Maybe we're also discussing two different areas of the continent. The biggest things, off the top of my head, were the lumber and fur trade industries. The leveling of forests and bison herds were done on the frontier, where maybe statehood didn't even exist. It's hard to fault lawmakers if there were none there in the first place.
            Last edited by wiltondeportes; 10-02-2013, 02:13 PM.

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            • Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
              also in an actual free society, Lazarus and his neighbors could just forge an agreement whereby they murder that neighbor and cannibalize his holdings. This behavior would be risky to even propose in the absence of conduct that was very clearly an eggregious threat to everyone around, and therefore is unlikely to be abused.
              Sounds like a real friendly, nice world to live in...

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              • You are advocating a world where computer algorythms dispatch death squads as a means of allocating resources...I am talking about people resolving their own affairs in dire circumstances by consensus.

                and when I was a good boy for mommy, I would also have dismissed Perfidy's criticism with almost identical language.
                "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                Jack london, "Before Adam"

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                • What did you tell your mother you want to be when you grow up, and how did she react?
                  "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                  Jack london, "Before Adam"

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                  • Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
                    You are advocating a world where computer algorythms dispatch death squads as a means of allocating resources...I am talking about people resolving their own affairs in dire circumstances by consensus.

                    and when I was a good boy for mommy, I would also have dismissed Perfidy's criticism with almost identical language.
                    You have a funny way of wording things.

                    You can't be a total idiot based upon your word usage. It's like someone took a sort of smart guy, made him stay awake for a week, gave him acid, flipped him upside down, and asked him to become a message board user.
                    Last edited by wiltondeportes; 10-02-2013, 02:47 PM.

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                    • If I could resurrect the Totse forums from the 90s, I absolutely would bet money that I would find again a near identically worded rebuttal to people that advocated freedom. But I was a good boy, and mommy wanted me to be successful.
                      "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                      Jack london, "Before Adam"

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                      • Well, this discussion's IQ and argumentativeness seem to have recently passed each other, heading in opposite directions
                        "The soul that does not attempt flight; does not notice its chains."

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                        • Originally posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
                          Well, this discussion's IQ and argumentativeness seem to have recently passed each other, heading in opposite directions
                          LOL. I can't help myself. I want to continue our discussion though.


                          Questions
                          1. What about growth of new technologies? Nuclear, solar? Maybe something else subatomic if we figure out what's going on in there.
                          2. Do you agree that total personal liberty, especially to people unused to such freedom (like the US Frontier in 1800s), lead to the Weitko mindset?
                          3. I was also saying that we are losing our spot at the table. I said that citizens gave up their seats at the table, and you said that powerful people took those seats away. How important are each of those factors and why?

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                          • What about my questions? They are exponenitally more relevant for your own life.
                            "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                            Jack london, "Before Adam"

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                            • Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
                              What about my questions? They are exponenitally more relevant for your own life.
                              Man, you are one creepy dude.

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                              • They said the same thing about any thinker of note ever.
                                "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                                Jack london, "Before Adam"

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