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Why aren't vegetarian s obese?

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  • #61
    They may be thin, but often lack muscle mass. I wasraw food vegan about 15 years ago, got down to 68kg (I'm a 6'1" male.......) my omnivorous lean weight is around 76kg. Ended the raw vegan one night by gorging on meat, felt so good! Have played around with vegetarianism for many years, but find it unsustainable and always return to omnivorous.

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    • #62
      My whole family became vegan when I did, years ago, because I actually did it whole food and healthy so I was losing weight and far healthier than I had ever been. They did it with processed food and faux meats. A whole food vegan diet is absolutely going to be healthier than SAD. Eventually that becomes unhealthy, but that's neither here nor there. Anyway they were eating a vegan version of SAD. In short, they were fat and extremely sickly. Still are. I have known a *lot* of fat vegans and vegetarians otherwise as well.
      Last edited by Shield_Maiden; 09-01-2013, 03:13 PM.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Zach View Post
        He shoots up methyl i believe. I take methyl as a sublinguel as well.
        You mean the methylcobalamin form of B12, right? Yes, I have also seen Durianrider (Harley) report that he gives himself regular B12 injections, which would account for his good B12 numbers. Before he took B12 injections, Dietitian Susie Burrell said Harley had "one of the lowest clinical levels [of B12] we have ever seen!" (Meat versus a vegetarian diet)

        One thing that may have helped him avoid other severe nutrient deficiencies is his massive intake of food. As his forum suggests, he often eats 30 bananas a day and when he said that when he's competing he eats up to 70 a day! He also eats other fruits and veggies (and recently incorporated some starchy foods into his diet).

        Originally posted by Zach View Post
        Btw, if you check Durians youtube and go back 5 years, he looks almost exactly the same. 5 years of fruitarianism is a long time. He also posted labs recently, 10 years of fruitarianism and is labs were ideal. Dunno man, i dont know him personally but i think he is doing pretty well.
        DR's thinness certainly doesn't fit well with the Carbohydrate Hypothesis of Obesity and he is an interesting example of the extreme dietary adaptability of the human body in at least the short run. So his experiment has been educational.

        Yet, while DR said his numbers were "all good" in his videos, there were some suboptimals numbers that may indicate more potential issues than just chronic B12 deficiency, such as below-range transferrin saturation and urea, zinc in the low end of the range, and testosterone below the 25.5 middle of the range in a 23 June 2010 test: vegan blood tests longterm? # 131 - YouTube

        He dismisses his low urea results as OK because they are just a result of his diet. If he's right then it indicates that his diet doesn't provide him with much in the way of bioavailable protein. I haven't seen any evidence that that's safe in the long term, just assumptions that it's OK. He didn't address the low transferrin or zinc and dismisses his suboptimal testosterone numbers as a normal result of being an endurance athlete.

        Here's an observation re: low zinc status in vegetarians from Carl C. Pfeiffer, Ph.D., M.D. that may be relevant:
        "The light-headed feeling of detachment that enshrouds some vegetarians can be caused by hidden Zinc hunger, rather than by some mystical quality of the brown rice or other food consumed."
        DR reported more suboptimal numbers in 2011, with below-range cortisol, below-range urea again, and somewhat low folate and DHEA-sulphate: RAW FOOD CORTISOL B12 TESTOSTERONE DHEA LEVELS VEGAN - YouTube Low urea can reportedly be caused by “malnutrition (insufficient dietary protein)” Blood urea nitrogen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Symptoms associated with low cortisol include "weight loss, and disorientation". (Adrenal insufficiency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

        Recently DR and Freelee have reported expanding their diet to include some McDougall-advocated starchy cooked foods. It seems that they and people they knew had been having problems they claimed were from eating too much fatty raw plant foods (DR mentioned eating 2 lbs. of raw cashews in one sitting, for example) in their effort to remain fully raw vegan and that some of their friends ended up in a mental ward or dead because of it (for example, see Day 10:Why sometimes eating cooked food is BETTER than RAW FOOD - YouTube). Freelee reported that she now eats up to 2 kilos (4-5 pounds) of cooked potatoes in one meal! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G-lF3YTuss)

        I hope they do better with their addition of starchy foods. Time will tell--they've been reporting good results so far. Some other raw vegans followed their example and added some starchy foods back into their diets and seemed pleased with it. I actually don't think it's necessary that the starchy foods be cooked (dried raw green plantains and other bananas, and raw potato starch are some raw alternatives, for example).

        Back in 2010, Matt Stone had an interesting take on the issues 80-10-10ers (which DR and Freelee used to say they followed "100%"--such as Freelee here: I EAT 100% RAW FOOD, the advantages I've experienced... - YouTube) tend to encounter:
        "As far as 80-10-10 is concerned, I've got a theory… health benefits derived from essential fatty acid deficiency? Maybe this is why eating low-fat doesn't do anything while eating really low-fat seems to work wonders (like Furhman's nutritarian gig in particular).

        This may also be why many inflammatory diseases clear up while fasting, although there are clearly other factors involved.

        They do end up having typical vegan degeneration though. Emaciation, spaciness, low sex drive, dental problems, etc.

        In general, fruitarian/vegan eating looks good on the internet, but they are often in greater denial than any people on earth about real issues that they eventually face… probably because veganism takes on a certain level of religious fervor that gets in the way of the body's clearcut message, which is "HELP!""
        It's interesting that there recently have been more people in both raw vegan and Paleo/Primal circles incorporating starchy foods into their diets. To each their own and I wish people well on whatever path they choose.
        Last edited by Paleophil; 09-01-2013, 08:57 AM.
        Originally posted by tatertot
        Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
        "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

        "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

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        • #64
          Good post, Phil.

          Yes, methylcobalamin.

          I think Durian and Freelees advocation of overeating is certainly one o the reasons why they thrive while others fail miserably. Just eating that much fruit every day is insansely hard. One of the reasons why thy are adding in starch and refined sugar.

          Also he posted much more recent blood test results, november 2012 i believe or close to it. Test is back up and urea is still los which is becaus of his extremely low protein intake.

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          • #65
            Thanks for the info, Zach, I found a more recent lab test done in December 2012 (Vegan for 12 years. Diabetic Obese Low Testosterone Hyperkalemic and out of shape? - YouTube). It's good to see Harley's testosterone up. He was thrilled by the 20.5 nmol/L number (I saw his DOB listed as 1977, which would make him around 35 at the time of the test), though it is still below what Art De Vany's was at age 70 (over 24 nmol/L, as reported by Robb Wolf at Paleo and Testosterone)! His urea is also up, though still below range. His transferrin saturation rose into the normal range at 25%, though it's on the low end of the optimal range (20-50%).

            I wonder if, like Freelee, he is eating more potatoes? That might account for his improved numbers, as potatoes contain decent protein for plants (Whole Health Source: Potatoes and Human Health, Part I).

            It's puzzling that his phosphate is high--1.31 mmol/L (range 0.70-1.30)--on a low fat raw vegan diet. Any idea what that's about?

            It's interesting that he ate 4kg of organic refined sugar per day to see if that would spike his triglycerides and they stayed low at 0.5 nmol/L. It seems that triglycerides aren't spiked by sugar alone. Another potential factor for those with high triglycerides is inadequate mitochondria to metabolize the sugar, which especially becomes a problem in the context of oxidative stress:

            Mitochondrial dysfunction induces triglyceride a... [J Lipid Res. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

            Role of oxidative stress in the pathogen... [Free Radic Biol Med. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

            Oxidative stress rather than triglyceride accumula... [Liver Int. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

            Evidence suggests that hormetic therapies fight this problem on both the mitochondria and oxidative stress fronts (which are intertwined), activating mitochondrial biogenesis (Activation of Mitochondrial Biogenesis by Hormesis) and promoting mitochondrial autophagy (Hormesis in Aging and Neurodegeneration—A Prodigy
            Awaiting Dissection, 2013, www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/14/7/13109/pd), plus reducing oxidative stress (Hormetic effects of regular exercise... [Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI) and building up the body's resistance to oxidative stress (Nutrition & Metabolism | Full text | Inflammatory modulation of exercise salience: using hormesis to return to a healthy lifestyle, 2010).

            Freelee's eating of meals containing 4-5 pounds of potatoes suggests that she thinks that potatoes are very healthy. She and Harley also seem to be talking increasingly more about McDougall and eating "high carb" (including cooked foods) than in the past when the focus seemed to be more on eating "100% raw" and Doug Graham.

            In this video Harley reported that he had his first big health improvements on a starchy McDougall diet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjECH...el_video_title (Dec 2011)

            Harley talks here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gxj_TD3_h0 (June 2013) about how his health was a mess as a kid when he drank lots of Coca Cola and improved greatly when he dropped that and ate lots of fruits instead, particularly bananas and dates, and he also touts rice, steamed potatoes, and corn here.

            Harley even said eat "starch or fruit" in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js7xGE6WWCg (May 2012). He also made one of McDougall's better points re: if you travel around the world you'll see that nearly every culture eats one or more starchy foods as a staple (and McDougall is probably not even aware of "Eskimo potato" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_potato).

            In one of their videos I think Harley talked about eating a cross between a McDougall and Doug Graham diet, which seems to be what they're doing now. They seem a tad defensive in some of their videos on cooked starchy foods, so I suspect they've been getting plenty of questions and some flack about this (I think it's probably an improvement over their past alleged 100% raw diet devoid of starchy foods and his test results so far seem to be bearing that out), but I've only sampled a small number of their vids and posts, so feel free to correct me if I got this or anything else wrong. While I don't recommend their extreme experiments, they do provide interesting information that could never be tested in a clinical study, assuming there's some truth to it.
            Last edited by Paleophil; 09-02-2013, 11:35 AM.
            Originally posted by tatertot
            Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
            "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

            "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

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            • #66
              it'll be interesting when they transition back to omnivorism.

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              • #67
                http://fuckyeahheavylifting.wordpress.com/

                She is in great shape and doesn't eat meat. Not that I would ever ever go that route again.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by umm7 View Post
                  http://fuckyeahheavylifting.wordpress.com/

                  She is in great shape and doesn't eat meat. Not that I would ever ever go that route again.
                  How long has she been vegan? Doesn't look like it's been very long. From her blog's about page:

                  "I am a “No-Meat Athlete”, i.e., vegan. I do not consume animals or anything that comes from them. Previously an omnivore, I made the switch this year and couldn’t be happier with my decision. "
                  If you're interested in my (very) occasional updates on how I'm working out and what I'm eating click here.

                  Originally posted by tfarny
                  If you are new to the PB - please ignore ALL of this stuff, until you've read the book, or at least http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Misabi View Post
                    How long has she been vegan? Doesn't look like it's been very long. From her blog's about page:

                    "I am a “No-Meat Athlete”, i.e., vegan. I do not consume animals or anything that comes from them. Previously an omnivore, I made the switch this year and couldn’t be happier with my decision. "
                    I was going to make the same point myself. She could be fine even for a year, perhaps more if very healthy. But she will always do worse than an equal meat eater. And in time will begin to degrade.

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                    • #70
                      I hadn't read that, in fact, after reading some posts I assumed (wrongly I see) that she had been that way for years. Did it give the date she wrote that? I, for some reason, cannot access her blog from my phone.

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                      • #71
                        Phil,

                        I dont want to accuse anyone of anything but i wouldnt be surprised at all if some of the older prominent paleo figures didnt use some sort of HRT.

                        I have not seen anything about harley adding in cooked starches to his diet. He often says a high carb diet is better but sugar is best so i think hes maknly adding sugar to his diet. He does advocate a traditional high carb/low fat vegan diet for everyone though. It seems like Freelee maybe needed some variety so is adding in cooked starch. Her motto is Go fruit or root yourself so she must think potatoes is aok. It would be interesting to see her blood tests.

                        I dont know why his phosphate would be high, im going to do a little reading. I was also really impressed with trigs and think it must be a combo of lack of dietary fat and how well they utilize sugar. I to find them very interesting, i would never suggest anyone go full fruitarian long term but it does seem to have some very positive effects on health if used short term or combined with a small amount of animal products. They are like a walking human study, very interesting.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by umm7 View Post
                          I hadn't read that, in fact, after reading some posts I assumed (wrongly I see) that she had been that way for years. Did it give the date she wrote that? I, for some reason, cannot access her blog from my phone.
                          The oldest post I could find on the blog was from February this year and a post in June mentions eating fish.

                          "Side-note regarding nutrition: I mentioned that I would be eating fish again, and that is primarily what I eat in the first place (no eggs at the moment)."
                          If you're interested in my (very) occasional updates on how I'm working out and what I'm eating click here.

                          Originally posted by tfarny
                          If you are new to the PB - please ignore ALL of this stuff, until you've read the book, or at least http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            When someone mentions Harley I think of this poor kid.

                            A 100% Raw Vegan Success Story

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                              I was a morbidly obese vegan, followed by many years of being an obese vegetarian. I'm now a merely overweight primal eater.
                              What sort of foods did you eat as a vegan? What was your exercise regime?

                              I recently switched to vegan. I want to keep it as primal as possible - minimal rice, potatos, lots of fruits and vegetables, some nuts and no processed food.
                              Would be helpful for me to know what to avoid.
                              Few but ripe.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by 70in2012 View Post
                                What sort of foods did you eat as a vegan? What was your exercise regime?

                                I recently switched to vegan. I want to keep it as primal as possible - minimal rice, potatos, lots of fruits and vegetables, some nuts and no processed food.
                                Would be helpful for me to know what to avoid.
                                There was another thread I posted in where someone was going vegan and I gave a bit of a run down on decent vegan nutrition/food.

                                I'd say cut out rice and potatoes completely, as well as grains. Stick to vegetables. Instead of potato do other root veggies, cauliflower or peel and dice eggplant for pan frying.

                                Careful with nuts as they're high in carbs and omega 6. You will have a hard time finding sources of bioavailable omega 3 as flax isn't as great a source as its touted to be. You will not be able to get adequate iron, no k2, and have to synthesize all your own d3 so you need lots of sun exposure. There is no vegan source of b12, no matter what they say (and I was once one of them), only analogues which are not actual b12 and can actually prevent real b12 from being absorbed so this has to be supplemented.

                                Because you have no protein sources you will have to eat legumes. Beans and lentils. Also safe soy products would be edamame and tempeh. Organic/non gmo tofu in moderation would be fine as well. Don't drink soy or rice milk; better *unsweetened* and preferably enriched as you will likely need a multivitamin for your lacking nutrients (d, k, b's, etc) would be coconut milk (not the cans, the beverage) and almond milk (my favourite used to be the almond/coconut blend its readily available in the USA and only just came to Canada).

                                You should probably pick up a few raw vegan cookbooks. I say this because raw vegan has a lot of dietary similarities to paleo/primal. No grains is a big one. Lots of ingredients that are common in raw vegan are common in primal. You can cook your food and do what you like your own way, but it will help give you ideas on what to eat and foods to make, using non-animal, primal sources. It will be nut and seed heavy, but with no meat if you keep it in balance with a load of vegetables, it should be okay.

                                No faux meats! Mushrooms are your friends. Deep fried shiitake stems are like chicken. You can use portabellas as burgers, or slice and fry or bake to do "meat". There's tons of mushrooms out there; enoki make for good squid adding mushrooms to food will make it "meaty".

                                Lastly, I would not suggest staying vegan for more than a few years. Before you commit, or while you are vegan, I suggest reading on the major flaws of the China Study, read The Vegetarian Myth, and learn about ethical farming and animal husbandry because yes you can be an ethical meat eater. Oh, and another good video is Farmageddon. It's about the government trying to basically ban real farming for factory farming. Vegans and real farmers are on the same side, to lessen cruelty, to have actually healthy food, and to not have someone else's food agenda enforced by law.

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