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  • #31
    Originally posted by Iron Fireling View Post
    Ripped yeah okay I kinda see where you're coming from, but you make too many generalisations. I know men who are extremely monogamous in their tendencies.
    The question is, why? There is a number of reasons why some men are monogamous and most of them have nothing to do with human nature, mainly just beliefs and culture. Have you ever thought that maybe a lot of the guys who you think are monogamous are actually liars and cheaters and just didn't get caught? Yes, they do and so do women!

    1. People are generally taught in modern societies that monogamy is the right thing to do. Polygamy is typically taboo.
    2. Some men are taught to believe that if they wait for the right one and stick with ONLY her, that's going to be the way to win her over. And there is a fear that goes along with that belief. Because the guy believes that if he went with a bunch of girls, that will ruin it for when he finally meets the right one because she will reject him because he had other girls.
    3. Some men are afraid of diseases.
    4. Some men are lazy and don't even want to get off the sofa.
    5. Some men can't or think they can't, and that's what keeps them from doing so.
    6. Sex is shamed upon in some societies.
    7. Etc., etc..
    Note:
    If you read over the entire list of reasons that I just listed, none of them have anything to do with the man's actual desires. They ALL have to do with the guy "thinking" he can't or shouldn't for one reason or another. It's all mind control.

    Originally posted by Iron Fireling View Post
    One guy I went out with is still fixated on me years later and has never dated another woman. It's kind of insane... I'm nothing special and he's tall, good looking and smart (and 13 years my junior).
    That's because he's STUPID!!! You ever hear of that? Again, it all has to do with beliefs. He's probably been "taught" his whole life that being with "the right one" is the right thing to do. So he sticks with his beliefs. And he probably doesn't even realize how handsome he is, or that he has plenty of chances with other women. Again, it boils down to can and can't. Because if he thought he could, he would. The reality is, he's probably still masterbating to internet porn.

    And, if you did get with him and gave him 100%, and if he knew he could have other girls, he would get bored of you and possibly eventually move on or start having interest in other women.

    LOL!!! Apologies if that was too graphic or insulting. No offense intended. I'm just trying to be realistic here.

    Most guys will if they can. The real exception might be a happy family life, because that's different and children are important.

    Originally posted by Iron Fireling View Post
    Likewise my husband is the same type (although he wouldn't fixate on me forever if we divorced) but he's happily monogamous.
    If your husband could have any woman on the planet and he knew it, do you really think he would continue to be monogamous? I doubt it.

    A lot of men are monogamous because they are afraid of losing something good. Sometimes it's mediocre at best. That's why some men marry ugly mean women who cheat on them and who already have kids from other men, and then they take care of the kids like their very own.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Ripped View Post
      I have studies and observed this stuff extensively. And this is what I can come up with:

      First of all, the idea of monogamy and how relationships are supposed to be is just something that was made up by human beings. It isn't natural and it isn't being honest about who we are and how we were meant to be.

      As I understand it, males are naturally inclined to want to have as many females as possible, and if they can they will. Additionally, if they only have one female, eventually they get repulsed by here, bored, and uninterested. I have seen at least one study that supports this and it is easy to observe in real life.

      Women on the other hand are naturally attracted to men who are already taken or have access to more females. I won't get into the reasons why as it would take too long. But another thing to note is that they'll never admit it either.

      Women are taught that they're only supposed to be attracted to single men and that's what they are looking for, but when they find one they don't want him. They are attracted to the man who's already taken. Even if they don't want to be, it still is what it is.

      Now if we look at this from a biological perspective, it's easy to see why. The more females a male mates with, the higher the chances are of survival of our species, because he's spreading a lot of seeds and having more babies. This is what our genes want. Their only purpose is for us to make replicas of ourselves.

      Now on the other hand, there is a little bit more to it. There's also a desire to ensure the survival of our children. And I'm not exactly sure how it all works out. But it seems both members (male and female) are typically compelled to want to take care of their children and see them grow up. And that's where family comes into play. Because in old times, the whole family would work to support each other and make things work.

      I don't know the answer to that one. Because it seems that some times the man's desire to have more females overrides his desire to take care of the baby. In 3rd world countries for example where they don't have child support, the man will sleep with the girl, get her pregnant, and then skip town. Is it really that big of a deal? He did his job, he spread his seed. And it shouldn't be too hard for the woman to find a way to take care of the baby on her own, or find another guy who is willing to help take care, and they often do. So from a survival perspective, it all works out. We make babies, and our species lives on. That's the main point our genes want us to accomplish.

      Now if you don't like the explanation, I'm just saying that this is my understanding based on what I've figured out over the years through research and life experience. Who says nature is fair anyways? Is it fair that lions attack and eat buffalo? Is it fair when buffalo attack back and kill those poor lions who were just trying to get a meal for the day? I don't make up the rules. That's just life. It isn't fair.

      Now if you can wrap your head around it understand it all, it points out a catch 22 situation on both sides of the relationship. The girl wants to keep the most attractive man, but often she can't. So that's sad on her part. The guy on the other hand might really like a girl and intend on sticking with her, but his natural traits will eventually drive him to lose interest. And if he's actually got a heart, he's not going to like what happens in the end either, because he's going to feel bad about breaking the girls heart. It sucks!

      Now you might be wondering what about all the men who are out there who actually are faithful. Remember how I mentioned initially that if males can have more females they will? Well, that is the reality. Most men can't, but the ones who can often do. No need to explain. The phenomenon is prevalent in other mammal species as well as with humans.

      Peace folks.
      Clearly having a family unit promoted survival, since family units are what is prevalent today. Just spreading your seed works well for tortoises and fish who have hundreds of offspring per mate. But in the case of humans, having a father and a mother who were invested in your survival provided some type of survival advantage.

      Also, since humans are tribal in nature and survive best in tribal settings, there is more to it than just spreading your seed. You have to benefit the tribe in some way in order to ensure the survival of your offspring. This may mean limiting sexual partners to prevent fighting within a group, limit transmission of sexually transmitted infections, or limiting fighting over limited resources.

      I'm not pro or anti-monogamy. Just don't enter in to a relationship declaring yourself monogamous and then have sex with someone else. Personally, on an intellectual level I can see some serious advantages to a having different setup than monogamy, but when it is difficult to deal with emotionally.
      Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

      http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

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      • #33
        They say Neanderthal was likely more given to monogamy since they lived in smaller clans and lacked the elaborate social schematics of sapiens...but it's all speculation.
        Crohn's, doing SCD

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        • #34
          My husband and I and a female friend were discussing the concept of a "free pass" I.e some celebrity or whatever that if we had a chance to be with (unlikely I know) we 'd get a free pass on... And my husband was the only one who said he wouldn't take it.

          I admit I was skeptical... But yeah, he just doesn't seem at all interested in the idea even if the woman was the hottest chick on the planet.

          Now I don't know if it's programming or what... To be honest my programming should be all about monogamy, but the reality is I'd rather prefer my life was not!

          Ultimately though we live by our own experiences and can't always interpret the behaviour of others or understand it. My husband certainly admits that he finds other women attractive, but wouldn't act on it even if given a chance. Given that, I still can't read his mind so I can't say with 100% certainty that he doesn't think about it (although he claims to only fantasise about me, which is just weird...)

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          • #35
            I should have known this would turn into "our humans meant to be monogamous?" Can't we just say courses for horses?

            Originally posted by nikitakolata View Post
            I have a friend like this; she is constantly getting involved with unavailable men. Personally I think she had commitment issues. It is definitely foreign to me; I have only once gone out with someone who admitted on the date he had a girlfriend. As soon as he said that I was out of there though.

            My friend is pretty shy and very coy when she first meets people. I think part of why she attracts attached guys is that she expects everyone to be as closed as she is at first so it didn't strike her as odd when someone is less than upfront with her.

            I have talked with her endlessly about this stuff and I can't really figure it out. Even now she is dating a guy that is truly single, except that his job is the real love of his life and he works at least 90 hours a week and often sleeps at his office. So, basically he is still unavailable.
            That's really interesting... Do you know what her family background is? Were her parents happy together? Was her upbringing neglectful?

            Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
            Speaking as a married man... having a "girlfriend" don't count for much in my book, unless she's a live in. Did you ever get to find out if it was a committed relationship sorta serious thing or what? I dunno.... In my wild days I've been the guy on the side plenty a time.
            Haha, you totally remind me of my mum! She always says that it's not cheating unless you're married

            Well, he says it's a rocky relationship (quell surprise), and apparently after my first "date" with him, he broke up with the girlfriend because the contrast between me and her confirmed to him that she was wrong for him. Then, apparently, she begged him to take her back. So he's back with her, but texting me "just to say hi" and letting me know he's "in the neighbourhood".

            Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
            Not trying to insult you here, but is it possible that in the world of the Fraggles, do you see something of yourself in wembly? What I mean is, you seem fun and energetic, but also a little naive and biddable?

            That might be what opportunistic married men might be thinking about you.
            LOL! That made me burst out laughing No... I'm definitely not like Wembly, but thanks for the visual, lol! Actually, I seem to attract "deep" men who are in relationships with... commercial women? Women who enjoy gossip, shopping, have commercial taste in books / movies / music. I'm a creative, and a bit of a nomad, so I think they feel like I understand them.

            Originally posted by LauraSB View Post
            If you think cheaters are a "type"(not sure that they are), it may be that you see something in these men that reminds you of your father. Lots of women are attracted to men that are like their fathers, even if there are specific things about their fathers that they don't care for. So it may just be an unfortunate circumstance that your father was a cheater. If you really had commitment issues, I think by now you would have had multiple relationships with unavailable men.
            You know, now that I think of it, my mum was always telling me that I should cheat on partners..! Her and my dad met when they were both in committed relationships (she was engaged, he was living with someone). I've always tried to be the opposite of her, but maybe I'm seeking these experiences out on a subconscious level because I was brought up on that philosophy.

            There are definitely commitment issues at stake... I have a fear of getting trapped, and I frequently go out with unavailable men (They're usually just out of relationships).

            Maybe I need to be in open relationships... Seems like the best of both worlds.
            "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

            In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

            - Ray Peat

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Ripped View Post
              As I understand it, males are naturally inclined to want to have as many females as possible, and if they can they will. Additionally, if they only have one female, eventually they get repulsed by here, bored, and uninterested. I have seen at least one study that supports this and it is easy to observe in real life.
              Oh, well, ONE STUDY, that settles it.

              Here, let me clue you, Einstein. There are a wide variety of primates. A something-other-than-an-internet-dumbass might discern that a highland gorilla and a chimpanzee and an orangutan and a baboon and a human being are all different creatures.

              A something-other-than-an-internet-dumbass also might see that chimpanzees are canabalistic and human beings are not. That human beings care for other human being's children, not just for their own.

              A something-other-than-a-internet-dumbass might also see that this is why human beings write stuff on the internet instead of hunting other primates kids.
              Last edited by Rojo; 08-16-2013, 12:40 AM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Iron Fireling View Post
                My husband certainly admits that he finds other women attractive, but wouldn't act on it even if given a chance. Given that, I still can't read his mind so I can't say with 100% certainty that he doesn't think about it (although he claims to only fantasise about me, which is just weird...)
                Iron Fireling, count your blessings, you have yourself a very wonderful man.
                Annie Ups the Ante
                http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread117711.html

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                • #38
                  Read "The Naked Ape" by Desmond Morris. He lays out an interesting theory of how we have evolved so called "love" and committed relationships.

                  His main thesis is that these became crucial in sustaining hunter-gatherer living as humans were not naturally endowed with hunting weaponry. Combine this with long gestation period and in general unusually long child-hood, you need monogamous relationships while menfolk hunt in groups and are away for a long time. Men needed to cooperate to hunt effectively and they cannot do it if they are constantly suspecting his partner screwing his woman. As a hunter-gatherer we needed to evolve an intricate set of practices that kept monogamy in the center with justifications such as "love".

                  It is incorrect to say that we are not naturally monogamous.

                  Since this is a committed community of trying eat and exercise like Groks, this book should be a highly recommended read.
                  Few but ripe.

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                  • #39
                    Actually, I seem to attract "deep" men who are in relationships with... commercial women? Women who enjoy gossip, shopping, have commercial taste in books / movies / music. I'm a creative, and a bit of a nomad, so I think they feel like I understand them.
                    People who go around being all deep...are not that deep. I think the phrase you're looking for is 'pretentious twat'.

                    What is your opinion of your mum compared to your dad's bit on the side? Have you made a decision (conscious or not) not to make the same mistakes as your mum, which means you are the other one. Just a thought. Most women at various stages actively reject their mother.
                    Life. Be in it.

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                    • #40
                      Some people are wired for monogamy and some people are not. In many ways it is culturally unacceptable to be non-monogamous, thus the common unflattering descriptor, "cheaters" to describe a person in a committed relationship who nevertheless continues to play the field. To explain why they are the way they are, some such people seem to construct bizarre pseudo-scientific explanations that claim no one is monogamous, when on any observational level this is simply untrue. Women are as likely as men to be this way.

                      It is usually men who come up with these explanations, and their explanation may involve the idea that all men are cheaters and no women are, thus [unflattering sexist conclusion goes here].

                      Such explanations usually involve the idea that the "cheater" is a superior being, as he is the only one accepting his sexual nature, while everyone else is repressing that part of themselves and thus lead unhappy and unfulfilled lives.

                      But this is the first time I have seen such an explanation include the claim that "I can get all the women I want, and if other men don't, it's not because they are monogamous, it's only because they're no good at getting women. NYAH NYAH!"

                      People need to justify their socially unacceptable behavior and will go to hilarious lengths to do so.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Belforte View Post
                        'pretentious twat'.

                        What is your opinion of your mum compared to your dad's bit on the side? Have you made a decision (conscious or not) not to make the same mistakes as your mum, which means you are the other one. Just a thought. Most women at various stages actively reject their mother.
                        Lol - these poor pretentious twats... Like moths to a flame

                        Umm, actually that's exactly it. I decided I wasn't going to be anything like my mother early on. I didn't respect her, and I hated the life that she made for herself. She married the wrong man, who gave her no support, and got trapped in a country she hated, straddled with two kids, and completely alienated. My dad on the other hand appeared long-suffering, but took off whenever he needed to, so I pitied him and envied his freedom, even though it meant he was was neglectful at times.

                        I don't know, it sounds silly, but I feel like I'm fighting with myself over expectations of what I want, and who I should be in a relationship, and as a result I close off completely.
                        "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                        In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                        - Ray Peat

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                          Got a psychoanalytical question for y'all

                          People repeat patterns in life, and particularly in relationships. Well, does anyone here (either through direct experience, or through observation) understand why some people often end up being the person on the side? For some reason, I've found myself in this situation a few times. I've never actually "done" anything, but from my mid-twenties I've been the recipient of non-single men wanting to get involved with me. It just happened again in the last few weeks - I started going on dates with this guy, and suddenly he announced that he had a girlfriend, but that he had feelings for me Obviously I told him we couldn't see each other any more, but he keeps contacting me.

                          When I was a kid my dad used to have affairs and I wonder if somehow this infiltrated my psyche. Or does it stem from a subconscious fear of commitment?

                          Or, is this a lot more common than I realize, and people just don't talk about it?!
                          much of who we are is shaped by who we are around. so yes.

                          many people find they are not biologically related to one of their parents during dna testing. so yes

                          first comes awareness, of yourself and your motivations.
                          then comes perception, of the other person and their motivations

                          the first people avoid with a passion
                          the second people avoid by rushing in where angels fear to tread.

                          we obtain the quality of life we seek.

                          If you find this to be your reality and prefer something else then take the time to truly explore the past and note the signs that tell you the person is unavailible, our brains process 1 billions bytes of data per second, and we filter it to 128k or so... You know what you are doing, you just tend to ignore it.
                          Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                            That's really interesting... Do you know what her family background is? Were her parents happy together? Was her upbringing neglectful?
                            That is what I actually find very fascinating. Her parents are happily married. They are both incredibly naive people, I must say, but they are really cute together and as far as anyone can tell are happier than the average couple. She is an only child and her mother is an only child. I don't know if that factors into things or not, but her mom is VERY needy of both her and her dad. Her mom is very nice, but pretty smothering on my friend.

                            I really don't totally get why my friend dates the people that she does. She talks all the time about wanting to be married and have/adopt kids, but then dates men with whom that will never happen in a way that is up to her standards. A lot of the guys she dates, it turns out, are having kids with other women (as in the woman is currently pregnant), are engaged, married, etc. She says she wants monogamy and these men clearly don't. The other thing she does that really puzzles me is that she never lets anyone go completely. She is 100% determined to stay in touch with every person she has dated, even if they have told her that they can't handle being around her as just a friend. So then she has these friendships where (I'm pretty sure) they "accidentally" end up either making out or in bed on occasion. Personally, I cut my exes loose after things go south. I could be friends with pretty much all of them now that time has passed, but I guess I just don't care to. So, I don't understand that behavior at all and she's never explained it to me in a way that makes any sense.

                            At the end of the day I know that she is very slow to open up with the men she dates. She has had some really great guys give up on her because she acted so aloof when she was with them (even though I knew from what she'd tell me that she really liked them or even loved them). I know there are issues with her parents to some degree; I think they may be a tad racist and in a quest to prove that she definitely isn't she will only date black men, for example. No white guy has ever had a chance with her. There's probably just a lot of different factors at play that all lead her to preferring unavailable men. Hopefully, she will resolve some of her issues so she can do whatever it is that will really make her happy because I don't think she is currently.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                              Lol - these poor pretentious twats... Like moths to a flame

                              Umm, actually that's exactly it. I decided I wasn't going to be anything like my mother early on. I didn't respect her, and I hated the life that she made for herself. She married the wrong man, who gave her no support, and got trapped in a country she hated, straddled with two kids, and completely alienated. My dad on the other hand appeared long-suffering, but took off whenever he needed to, so I pitied him and envied his freedom, even though it meant he was was neglectful at times.

                              I don't know, it sounds silly, but I feel like I'm fighting with myself over expectations of what I want, and who I should be in a relationship, and as a result I close off completely.
                              Originally posted by nikitakolata View Post
                              That is what I actually find very fascinating. Her parents are happily married. They are both incredibly naive people, I must say, but they are really cute together and as far as anyone can tell are happier than the average couple. She is an only child and her mother is an only child. I don't know if that factors into things or not, but her mom is VERY needy of both her and her dad. Her mom is very nice, but pretty smothering on my friend.

                              I really don't totally get why my friend dates the people that she does. She talks all the time about wanting to be married and have/adopt kids, but then dates men with whom that will never happen in a way that is up to her standards. A lot of the guys she dates, it turns out, are having kids with other women (as in the woman is currently pregnant), are engaged, married, etc. She says she wants monogamy and these men clearly don't. The other thing she does that really puzzles me is that she never lets anyone go completely. She is 100% determined to stay in touch with every person she has dated, even if they have told her that they can't handle being around her as just a friend. So then she has these friendships where (I'm pretty sure) they "accidentally" end up either making out or in bed on occasion. Personally, I cut my exes loose after things go south. I could be friends with pretty much all of them now that time has passed, but I guess I just don't care to. So, I don't understand that behavior at all and she's never explained it to me in a way that makes any sense.

                              At the end of the day I know that she is very slow to open up with the men she dates. She has had some really great guys give up on her because she acted so aloof when she was with them (even though I knew from what she'd tell me that she really liked them or even loved them). I know there are issues with her parents to some degree; I think they may be a tad racist and in a quest to prove that she definitely isn't she will only date black men, for example. No white guy has ever had a chance with her. There's probably just a lot of different factors at play that all lead her to preferring unavailable men. Hopefully, she will resolve some of her issues so she can do whatever it is that will really make her happy because I don't think she is currently.
                              I hadn't read the whole thread when I replied above... now that I have, I definitely see some commonalities among you and my friend. She doesn't want to be as naive as her parents, that's one thing. She also thinks they are racists and definitely never wants to be thought of that way either. She loves her mom but doesn't want to be like her. That is definitely something you have in common.

                              I also don't think she really knows what she wants and I don't think she trusts her own judgement for some reason. I know she wants to find out as much as she can about a guy before she lets him in; it's a self protection thing. The only problem is that it doesn't really work because she ends up having feelings for them anyway, she just doesn't communicate those feelings to the guy.

                              Anyway, I find this stuff very interesting, if you couldn't tell.

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                              • #45
                                Where was your mum from? What are your fears about being somewhere you don't like?

                                As much as we like to think that we all have opportunities, it is a little difficult if you have two children in a foreign country to change up your life. She probably thought she was making the best decision.

                                Give yourself the opportunity to be in a monogamous relationship if that is what you want, don't avoid it because it did not work out for your parents, they are 2 different people.
                                Life. Be in it.

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