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  • Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    that's the argument I always make to my wife about most make-up, definitely having her nails done, and the time and attention that she spends getting dressed. Most men literally don't even notice, so it must be to impress/threaten rival women.
    Yup. As someone very settled and who wasn't fussed about competition (there is none, trust me ), I never bothered with all that "make-up and dress nice for the first 3 months" nonsense. I wear make-up when I go somewhere VERY posh. I wear jewellery when I feel like it and only meaningful things that he gave me.
    I ask my fiance outright if he'd like me to wear/do something. When we first met-up (we started dating before we met in person) if he'd like me to wear anything special or put on make-up for him. He said to come as I'd feel comfortable. So I did. I wore a nice t-shirt and a pair of jeans and no make-up. I learned very early on that he appreciated nice underwear, a well-fitting dress or pair of jeans and when I'd wear something he got me. I also learned that he wasn't bothered about make-up, messy hair (or bad hair days), extent of shaving, painted nails..etc

    Yet the women who put the most effort into their dress are the ones who have JUST started dating a man who they think is a catch. [Note: the sort of woman who takes pride in being a home-breaker puts the most effort into her dress when starting to approach a married man. But they're strange outliers, nowhere near the norm.] They may have known him for 10+ years. He's seen them in silly pajamas, without make-up, on a bad hair day or with unshaven legs. He knows they can be like that. But they're worried they don't look "appropriate" or that other women will hit on him/"steal" him. It extends to weight, too. Teenage girls with EDs often want to be skinny because (due to their obvious lack of confidence) other women "flirt" with their partners right in front of them. They think being thinner will make them look "right" and protect their relationship, when a bit of obvious jealousy, a serious conversation with the partner and a confident act in public would do the trick better.
    Other women can be very, very strange.
    --
    Perfection is entirely individual. Any philosophy or pursuit that encourages individuality has merit in that it frees people. Any that encourages shackles only has merit in that it shows you how wrong and desperate the human mind can get in its pursuit of truth.

    --
    I get blunter and more narcissistic by the day.
    I'd apologize, but...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
      When my kid was 7 years old she started crying one day at the dinner table. I asked why, and she said it was because she was "fat and lazy". Her father, my ex-husband, had told her so.

      Maybe she should have just pulled herself up by her bootstraps.
      That's awful. That is basically child abuse. And yes, emotional abuse counts.

      If she'd heard that from school, I'd agree with the above and (gently, as she's young), explain to her that people are sometimes mean just to upset you (and therefore shouldn't be listened to as they'd say ANYTHING to upset you), sometimes don't know what they're saying (they could have meant another thing, but been blunt) and sometimes just get angry and are rude on purpose, not to hurt you but because they aren't thinking. Basically tell her she'll hear those things and that they don't mean anything. But when it's an adult, that's hard to explain to a child. Children look up to adults, view them as authority. If an adult cannot be trusted, then that turns a child's world upside down. Especially at that age (at 13-14 maybe they can cope with adults being idiots, but at 7 it can be quite a shock). And, I repeat, it's abuse.
      --
      Perfection is entirely individual. Any philosophy or pursuit that encourages individuality has merit in that it frees people. Any that encourages shackles only has merit in that it shows you how wrong and desperate the human mind can get in its pursuit of truth.

      --
      I get blunter and more narcissistic by the day.
      I'd apologize, but...

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Kochin View Post
        And, I repeat, it's abuse.
        Is it? We don't know the backstory. There have been several times in my life where I have been both fat and lazy. Is calling me such abuse or is it stating fact? There are many kids who are both fat and lazy. There are many fat and lazy adults. They are of all ages and sexes. So is it abuse if it is true? (Not saying it was true, as perhaps eKatherine's daughter was a willowy workaholic and ex was just a douche, but to assume the opposite is no more true without context).

        Not that I think calling your kids fat and lazy is good parenting, but to automatically jump to abuse based on one incident with no background is a bit trigger happy.

        Comment


        • I've talked to a lot of guys about makeup. I went through a phase where I was doing a little project on it and questioned guys who didn't realize they were the subjects. What I found was that every guy will tell you he hates it when a woman wears too much makeup. But hardly any will recognize when a woman is wearing lots of well-applied makeup to the extent she has completely changed her looks. Heck, my landlord didn't even recognize me the day I wore makeup, and I see him all the time.

          If you show a woman before and after photos like this, she will see it is the same woman, but made up. The guy may not recognize that it is the same woman. They may just see the after as a more attractive woman than the before.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by canio6 View Post
            Is it? We don't know the backstory. There have been several times in my life where I have been both fat and lazy. Is calling me such abuse or is it stating fact? There are many kids who are both fat and lazy. There are many fat and lazy adults. They are of all ages and sexes. So is it abuse if it is true? (Not saying it was true, as perhaps eKatherine's daughter was a willowy workaholic and ex was just a douche, but to assume the opposite is no more true without context).

            Not that I think calling your kids fat and lazy is good parenting, but to automatically jump to abuse based on one incident with no background is a bit trigger happy.
            She was a little kid. Little kids aren't lazy. They don't have jobs to slack off on. She was neither skinny nor fat. She wore regular sized clothes.

            The back story is that he feels morally obligated to harass family members who haven't chosen to be perfect as he has. He used to nag me for hours on end because, at 5'4", I weighed more than 100 pounds.

            He associates the words "fat" and "lazy". If someone fits his definition of "fat", they are by definition "lazy".

            The day I left him was the first day of the rest of my life.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
              The day I left him was the first day of the rest of my life.
              Ah, so he was a douche. Thanks for the background. Good to hear you and your daughter got away from him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by canio6 View Post
                Is it? We don't know the backstory. There have been several times in my life where I have been both fat and lazy. Is calling me such abuse or is it stating fact? There are many kids who are both fat and lazy. There are many fat and lazy adults. They are of all ages and sexes. So is it abuse if it is true? (Not saying it was true, as perhaps eKatherine's daughter was a willowy workaholic and ex was just a douche, but to assume the opposite is no more true without context).

                Not that I think calling your kids fat and lazy is good parenting, but to automatically jump to abuse based on one incident with no background is a bit trigger happy.
                Note: saying a fat and lazy child is fat and lazy may be a statement of fact. However, if a child hasn't been spoken to like that before, then it can be very hurtful. It's an attack. Telling a girl she's a bit overweight, tubby or should be going out/helping at home more would be more reasonable, from a parent's perspective. Discussing it with your partner/the other parent first may be more appropriate. Judging by the response, the wording truly shocked the girl. She wasn't ready for that.
                I'm blunt and have very little empathy. Even I understand that tact is needed with people who are sensitive. Children nowadays are very fragile (arguably too fragile, but that's not the point). When someone's emotional stability is fragile and their power for logic is yet immature, you don't call them fat and lazy.

                [PS: The response is a response to Canio's point, not necessarily to the situation. I am now aware that the girl was not fat or lazy. But, even if she were, my point is that that is emotional abuse.]
                --
                Perfection is entirely individual. Any philosophy or pursuit that encourages individuality has merit in that it frees people. Any that encourages shackles only has merit in that it shows you how wrong and desperate the human mind can get in its pursuit of truth.

                --
                I get blunter and more narcissistic by the day.
                I'd apologize, but...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Kochin View Post
                  Note: snipped
                  I agree that there are better ways to go about it. I am not saying he was right. My objection was to your automatic jump to abuse. Words can be hurtful. Telling a child 'no' when all they have ever heard is 'yes' can be hurtful. Fragile self-esteems and egos can be bruised in all kinds of ways. Back in my day sports had winners and losers. Just 10 years later when my sister played everyone was a winner and score was not kept. It might hurt someone's feelings to be the 'loser'

                  It gets a bit ridiculous, though in the case of eKatherine's ex it does seem as if you are correct and this one incident was the norm not the exception.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
                    Here we go: First pic ever on here. I want bonus pts!

                    [ATTACH]12191[/ATTACH]
                    I do believe magnolia asked for photos of man thighs, which seem to be missing from this otherwise lovely shot.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by canio6 View Post
                      I agree that there are better ways to go about it. I am not saying he was right. My objection was to your automatic jump to abuse. Words can be hurtful. Telling a child 'no' when all they have ever heard is 'yes' can be hurtful. Fragile self-esteems and egos can be bruised in all kinds of ways. Back in my day sports had winners and losers. Just 10 years later when my sister played everyone was a winner and score was not kept. It might hurt someone's feelings to be the 'loser'

                      It gets a bit ridiculous, though in the case of eKatherine's ex it does seem as if you are correct and this one incident was the norm not the exception.
                      Hence the mention of tact. I do think people are more fragile in every sense today than they used to be. I don't think this is good or should be encouraged. But consistency is ideal. If a child can be shattered by a simple "no", you did something wrong and need to solve it. But, if the child is shattered by every "no", it's still traumatic to go from not being told it ever to being told it all the time. These things need to be adjusted and eased in, not thrown at someone.
                      Going from "nothing is too good for precious" straight to "no" is how you get the current generation of kids: entitled, narcissistic, yet fragile and pampered.
                      --
                      Perfection is entirely individual. Any philosophy or pursuit that encourages individuality has merit in that it frees people. Any that encourages shackles only has merit in that it shows you how wrong and desperate the human mind can get in its pursuit of truth.

                      --
                      I get blunter and more narcissistic by the day.
                      I'd apologize, but...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
                        how about growing the hell up?
                        The problem with those Pinterest things is that stuff like that is what media is these days and it's not created by Cosmo or TV or a bunch of gay guys looking for walking coat hangers for their fashion shoots. It's created by the girls themselves. It's internalized at such a young age that "growing up" isn't yet a possibility. And then it is held there deep inside the psyche for a very very long time. My grandmother learned it and passed it to my mother. My mother learned it and both of them passed it to me. Nothing in life is as important to a woman as what she looks like. Everything will depend on it. Even the freakin' US Secretary of State can't enjoy her success without the whole world commenting on the size of her thighs.
                        Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

                        Comment


                        • I agree with you.

                          However explaining just how effective they have been at infantalizing us is not a cause for sympathizing to it. It is a case for fighting it harder, ignoring it more fervently.

                          I understand that the reality is that women were objectified for hundreds of years, and still are in many parts of the world. As men, we were made into being the "lords" of our "property", and this included everything from owning large homes to being ideal "providers" for our family....the vestiges of this are still around today, and must be called out everywhere they are found.

                          Obviously, the world has changed. Many of the "double standards" we hold for the appearance of women, and why some act as if they are judged solely by it, harken back to the days when that was ALL they had to worry about. Women 80 years ago really WERE expected to be beautiful home-makers. They weren't running companies or having careers.

                          Fast forward several decades, and you see that same antiquated mentality being pushed on young girls and everyone else. When you add to it that it sells, creates juvenile men and insecure women to sell it to, it becomes very potent....tradition and capitalism are a powerful combination.

                          What I am saying is that we have to show why NOT to listen, not find ways to accommodate the media's destructive model....
                          "The soul that does not attempt flight; does not notice its chains."

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                          • What I am saying is that we have to show why NOT to listen, not find ways to accommodate the media's destructive model....
                            For a lot of women the problem starts with their mothers.... That's what drives me nuts about some women...your daughters can hear and see you being nitwits about your body. My mom was pretty harsh to me. I just remember she was so snippy about my weight with regards to my horseback riding. The message was always "too fat to win" even at a young age being told I look fat...by my mom. And I wasn't even that fat as a kid- stout, not elegant, but also very active. The other thing was.... she was wrong. For the most part, they were judging my horse's performance...

                            It's a message I have carried with me for years "they think you look fat", through job interviews, a marathon, college, working out. So it sucks, its going into something with a giant insecurity.

                            So.... nothing was really gained by her fat nagging. Who made a difference? Dad who told me he was afraid for my health, and my brother who has been a constant good example for health.

                            http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                            Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                            • Originally posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
                              What I am saying is that we have to show why NOT to listen, not find ways to accommodate the media's destructive model....
                              +1. A Lion in Iron: Women
                              The Champagne of Beards

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                              • Speaking from experience, it's fucking hard to get that destructive model out of your head.

                                I KNOW my self worth is not gauged by the size of my thighs. I KNOW the intrinsic is more important than the extrinsic. I KNOW the media's perpetuation of unrealistic standards of beauty is perverted, and insidious, and wrong.

                                We all KNOW.

                                Well, except for that confused, scared 13-year-old who lives in my head and tells me I can't wear shorts because my legs are fat and gross (they're not). That little girl has been putting me down for 30+ years and I desperately want her to shut the fuck up and go away. But she's relentless. And persistent. And she won't be rationalized away.

                                I understand there is emotional work I must do to banish her. Or at least make her say something nice to me. I'm still working on it.

                                As for young girls, OF COURSE it's imperative we show them "why NOT to listen or find ways to accommodate the media's destructive model.." because, from my experience, once the damage is done, it's hard to undo.

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