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  • #91
    Originally posted by Miguelinileugim View Post
    Yes, I agree that morality can be understood through the lenses of evolution.

    But, you said that morals is about what is important, not what is joyful, but is there a difference between the latter and the former? What do you think is important in life other than happiness?
    Living, for one. You can be alive and not happy, but you cannot be dead and happy.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
      Living, for one. You can be alive and not happy, but you cannot be dead and happy.
      But apart from being alive, what's the thing you want most from life?

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
        We'd have to physically exterminate the financier class, the media sorcerers, and anyone still clinging to the idea of owning land.
        Oy vey, it's like another shoah!
        Ye shall know them by their fruits.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Miguelinileugim View Post
          But apart from being alive, what's the thing you want most from life?
          You're trying to get me to say that I want to be happy. I just want to satisfy my needs, satisfy needs of others, and try to leave my mark well into the future. Happiness is a feeling, so I don't think it makes much sense for a feeling to be a moral.

          I'm going to give something new a try here.... This is from a program I use called "Freeplane". Let me know if you're able to comprehend or not. I much prefer mindmapping to paragraph writing.

          Last edited by wiltondeportes; 06-10-2013, 11:57 PM.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
            You're trying to get me to say that I want to be happy. I just want to satisfy my needs, satisfy needs of others, and try to leave my mark well into the future. Happiness is a feeling, so I don't think it makes much sense for a feeling to be a moral.

            I'm going to give something new a try here.... This is from a program I use called "Freeplane". Let me know if you're able to comprehend or not. I much prefer mindmapping to paragraph writing.

            And why? Why should you do all that? Please tell me, literally NOBODY has ever given me a satisfying answer to the "why?" of morality.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Miguelinileugim View Post
              And why? Why should you do all that? Please tell me, literally NOBODY has ever given me a satisfying answer to the "why?" of morality.
              It all goes back to the desire to survive. You survive in your own skin, then you pass on your genes, then you ensure your genes survive to pass it further on, then you pass on your memes. Why survive? I'll do my best to explain....

              There are four main modes of thinking: empirical, rational/logical, faith/authority, and intuition. From first to last, you go from more complex to less complex. The more complex ones are generally the most useful in analyzing the world. Smart people get used to this, so they put everything under the empirical and logical microscope. I know I've been guilty of it.

              However, some parts of life are simply primal. They always were faith and intuition driven, and it's best to leave them that way. We are approaching the very basics of life in this conversation. Above my logic driven answers of how one can survive (thru self, genes, and memes) is an intuitive driven answer that, yes, I must survive. It just feels right, and I'm going to leave it that way.

              If you're looking for logic as to why the human race, or just yourself, should survive, you will be greatly disappointed. Morals of that sort are total human constructs with nothing backing them but intuition also!
              Last edited by wiltondeportes; 06-11-2013, 07:38 AM.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                It all goes back to the desire to survive. You survive in your own skin, then you pass on your genes, then you ensure your genes survive to pass it further on, then you pass on your memes. Why survive? I'll do my best to explain....

                There are four main modes of thinking: empirical, rational/logical, faith/authority, and intuition. From first to last, you go from more complex to less complex. The more complex ones are generally the most useful in analyzing the world. Smart people get used to this, so they put everything under the empirical and logical microscope. I know I've been guilty of it.

                However, some parts of life are simply primal. They always were faith and intuition driven, and it's best to leave them that way. We are approaching the very basics of life in this conversation. Above my logic driven answers of how one can survive (thru self, genes, and memes) is an intuitive driven answer that, yes, I must survive. It just feels right, and I'm going to leave it that way.

                If you're looking for logic as to why the human race, or just yourself, should survive, you will be greatly disappointed. Morals of that sort are total human constructs with nothing backing them but intuition also!
                Wait a sec... Do you mean that there's no "why?" of morality, just like intuition and that it will always be? I mean, I think that I have discovered the "why" of morality, and even if I hadn't I think that there must be one.

                P.S: Sorry for the bad my-reply-to-yours ratio, but I don't need to use lots of words for my arguments on this matter, so far

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                • #98
                  My "why" is often fear of repercussions. Sometimes not, but it usually is.

                  M.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by MEversbergII View Post
                    My "why" is often fear of repercussions. Sometimes not, but it usually is.

                    M.
                    OK, now please Mr.Hobbesian could you explain us why do you think that we shouldn't (or should) act morally and what moral we should follow then?

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                    • Originally posted by Miguelinileugim View Post
                      OK, now please Mr.Hobbesian could you explain us why do you think that we shouldn't (or should) act morally and what moral we should follow then?
                      I'm afraid I'm not following you.

                      M.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Miguelinileugim View Post
                        Wait a sec... Do you mean that there's no "why?" of morality, just like intuition and that it will always be? I mean, I think that I have discovered the "why" of morality, and even if I hadn't I think that there must be one.

                        P.S: Sorry for the bad my-reply-to-yours ratio, but I don't need to use lots of words for my arguments on this matter, so far
                        There are different levels of morality. Behind every single logical reason to be something or do something, you have to make at least one assumption. That is that you want to survive.

                        If you don't want to survive in any form (including by meme, which would be a martyr or sacrificed soldier's driving belief), then you are amoral.

                        Let's hear your 'why' for morality though.

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                        • Originally posted by MEversbergII View Post
                          I'm afraid I'm not following you.

                          M.
                          Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                          There are different levels of morality. Behind every single logical reason to be something or do something, you have to make at least one assumption. That is that you want to survive.

                          If you don't want to survive in any form (including by meme, which would be a martyr or sacrificed soldier's driving belief), then you are amoral.

                          Let's hear your 'why' for morality though.

                          Well, guess I'll show my cards:
                          Straight flush

                          Wish I could save the game of life at this point in case that I regret it
                          Last edited by Miguelinileugim; 06-11-2013, 10:36 PM. Reason: Flying space cats

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                          • Originally posted by Miguelinileugim View Post
                            Well, guess I'll show my cards:
                            Straight flush

                            Wish I could save the game of life at this point in case that I regret it
                            Ah ha!
                            You: want to feel an emotion (happiness); therefore you survive
                            I: feel emotional (intuitively) about a conclusion (survival); therefore I feel happy in achievement of said goal

                            We're saying the same thing, but your explanation is prettier than mine. I'll probably have to adopt it after I check for any minor differences and loopholes.

                            I have to admit that you had the head start on philosophy. I hadn't gone into great depths with it because it was too intuitive to be at the top of my priorities.
                            Last edited by wiltondeportes; 06-12-2013, 12:48 AM.

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                            • Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                              Ah ha!
                              You: want to feel an emotion (happiness); therefore you survive
                              I: feel emotional (intuitively) about a conclusion (survival); therefore I feel happy in achievement of said goal

                              We're saying the same thing, but your explanation is prettier than mine. I'll probably have to adopt it after I check for any minor differences and loopholes.

                              I have to admit that you had the head start on philosophy. I hadn't gone into great depths with it because it was too intuitive to be at the top of my priorities.
                              Yay! Another convert to my dark amoralistic sect! Wanna burn an orphanage later? You know, for happiness!

                              P.S: Of course, I'm kidding, that would be "unethical"

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                              • "when life is ascending, happiness is the same as instinct." -nietzsche

                                Ima get to work on them definitions later, spaniard. Haha can you do like, a better job with them?
                                "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                                Jack london, "Before Adam"

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