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  • #46
    Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    Please tell me what percent would make it "significant" maybe?

    You can't defend those programs though, at least as they exist (as opposed to in principle) without sayin, "I like government subsidies for garbage agriculture and toxic medicine!"
    Anytime you're government spending is greater than 40% of GDP you're a socialist country
    Starting Date: Dec 18, 2010
    Starting Weight: 294 pounds
    Current Weight: 235 pounds
    Goal Weight: 195 pounds

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    • #47
      Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
      Seems like it wouldn't really be an oversimplification to say that according to this research "men with larger biceps aggressively want a bigger share of the pie, while those without large biceps do not".
      Or men with small biceps want to steal from others (through the force of the government) instead of earning it, while those with larger biceps don't.
      Starting Date: Dec 18, 2010
      Starting Weight: 294 pounds
      Current Weight: 235 pounds
      Goal Weight: 195 pounds

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      • #48
        Originally posted by 0Angel0 View Post
        You are misinformed. Federal and State budget statistics are public information, you know, so if I'm a lying troll a five minute google session should expose me.
        You made the original claim prove you're not and show your stats
        Starting Date: Dec 18, 2010
        Starting Weight: 294 pounds
        Current Weight: 235 pounds
        Goal Weight: 195 pounds

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        • #49
          Originally posted by kenn View Post
          You made the original claim prove you're not and show your stats
          Here ya go. On any given year welfare spending is nearly half of what defense spending is comprising 11-13% of the total. Feel free to double check on your own: Congressional Budget Office (CBO).

          untitledPieChart.jpg
          2012-federal-budget-bars-new.jpg
          WhereOurTaxDollarsGo-f1_rev4-12-13.jpg

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
            that's an easy one...

            the ones doing the buying and selling decide on a fair exchange. LOL the most fundamental and basic principles of market exchange really elude you?
            No, they don't elude me. I was teacher's pet in my Econ classes.

            What eludes me is how you think taxation and redistribution allow me to have much of a say in where my pay goes. A very large chunk of it goes away without my control and I never do have any chance to spend it. So how is that "buying and selling on a fair exchange" if I never even see it, let alone choose how it's spent?
            Durp.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by 0Angel0 View Post
              Here ya go. On any given year welfare spending is nearly half of what defense spending is comprising 11-13% of the total. Feel free to double check on your own: Congressional Budget Office (CBO).

              [ATTACH=CONFIG]11783[/ATTACH]
              [ATTACH]11784[/ATTACH]
              [ATTACH=CONFIG]11785[/ATTACH]
              I'm going to assume that you think that welfare has a very limited definition, I disagree you have to look at forms of welfare. I'm not against welfare in general, I'm against state welfare that requires forcing people to give up their wealth to support others and is not a mark of a free republic.

              This is from 2013 Outlays

              First, those attachments won't be approved most likely for a long time.

              Second, If you lop all defense related spending you get ~$1 Trillion; Many VA related costs are a form of welfare

              Third, for 2013 We spend ~$1 Trillion within the Department of Health and Human Services (Medicaid & Medicare and others), this is a form of welfare spending

              Fourth, $46.3B On Housing & Development (most of it welfare related)

              Fifth, ~$900B, this is a form of welfare also

              Sixth, $150B on Agriculture, most of this serves as a form of welfare

              Seventh, $100B on Labor which have many welfare related costs

              There was welfare before there was state welfare Welfare before the Welfare State - Joshua Fulton - Mises Daily
              Starting Date: Dec 18, 2010
              Starting Weight: 294 pounds
              Current Weight: 235 pounds
              Goal Weight: 195 pounds

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              • #52
                Originally posted by 0Angel0 View Post
                What is fair is for society to decide and politicians to implement. At least that how it should work in a representative democracy such as the US. Your paycheck isn't flowing to anyone individually. Your tax money goes to a collective pool that is then distributed by the politicians we elect in a manner that, ideally, benefits everyone as a whole.
                But it's NOT representative anymore. It hasn't been for quite some time. It's NOT working the way it should, and yet we continue to put more and more money into a system that we know doesn't work, in the hopes that it will somehow correct itself. Economics doesn't work that way.


                Originally posted by 0Angel0 View Post
                My personal opinion is that tax breaks for oil companies who are making record profits are grossly unfair. As is a CEO's secretary paying a higher percentage of her income in taxes than the CEO. I could go on and on.
                Hence my support for a flat tax. But no one wants to give up their own special little tax break, whether high or low income. The wealthy are just better at fighting to keep theirs.

                Originally posted by 0Angel0 View Post
                The concern and anger over Welfare in the US is so irrational. It makes up such a small percentage of the actual budget but is one of the things people worry about most with respect to their tax dollars. I suggest we would be better served to stop worrying about whether or not people are buying Doritos with food stamps and start worrying about the amount of waste and fraud that goes in with Defense spending. Only because Defense is what actually takes a huge chunk of our tax dollars. That and corporate subsides which don't equal defense spending but are double that spent on welfare. The "some other guy" getting most of your tax dollars isn't the person on welfare!
                Saying Issue A is worse than Issue B doesn't automatically turn Issue A into a wonderful thing. You actually can fix more than one problem.

                Originally posted by 0Angel0 View Post
                You may not like to call yourself a conservative but you sure do talk like one. I can understand if you took offense. I would consider being called a conservative an insult.
                And there's your bias. I don't form opinions based on what a liberal or conservative ought to think. I think for myself. I'm guessing you would find it horrifying for someone to think you had a conservative opinion, which would mean you're not really thinking about the issues, just following the herd.
                Durp.

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                • #53
                  Nobody thinks for themselves. No man is an island.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Rojo View Post
                    Nobody thinks for themselves. No man is an island.
                    That's how they want you to think
                    Starting Date: Dec 18, 2010
                    Starting Weight: 294 pounds
                    Current Weight: 235 pounds
                    Goal Weight: 195 pounds

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by kenn View Post
                      I'm going to assume that you think that welfare has a very limited definition, I disagree you have to look at forms of welfare. I'm not against welfare in general, I'm against state welfare that requires forcing people to give up their wealth to support others and is not a mark of a free republic.

                      This is from 2013 Outlays

                      First, those attachments won't be approved most likely for a long time.

                      Second, If you lop all defense related spending you get ~$1 Trillion; Many VA related costs are a form of welfare

                      Third, for 2013 We spend ~$1 Trillion within the Department of Health and Human Services (Medicaid & Medicare and others), this is a form of welfare spending

                      Fourth, $46.3B On Housing & Development (most of it welfare related)

                      Fifth, ~$900B, this is a form of welfare also

                      Sixth, $150B on Agriculture, most of this serves as a form of welfare

                      Seventh, $100B on Labor which have many welfare related costs

                      There was welfare before there was state welfare Welfare before the Welfare State - Joshua Fulton - Mises Daily
                      LOL you called me a liar and when I provided proof you are now just labeling a bunch of stuff "welfare" and hoping something sticks. It reeks of desperation. It's the governments job to distribute revenue into various parts of the economy and on different programs. That doesn't make it welfare. It's government spending. AKA doing it's job.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by kenn View Post
                        That's how they want you to think
                        No. They want you to think you came up with your ideas on your own. You didn't.

                        "The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed, the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually slaves of some defunct economist.”

                        ― John Maynard Keynes

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by RitaRose View Post
                          But it's NOT representative anymore. It hasn't been for quite some time. It's NOT working the way it should, and yet we continue to put more and more money into a system that we know doesn't work, in the hopes that it will somehow correct itself. Economics doesn't work that way.
                          That is our fault as voters really. And the fault of those who don't even bother to vote. When we continually elect incumbents that have proven to be ineffective we have no one to blame but ourselves. The United States of America isn't inneffective. As much as it's become a national pastime to condem the government the truth is it's not always so. Sure we have challenges and things that need to be addressed (and obstructing morons voted out of office) but that will always be the case.

                          Hence my support for a flat tax. But no one wants to give up their own special little tax break, whether high or low income. The wealthy are just better at fighting to keep theirs.
                          I want tax policy that ensures a prosperous economy and opportunity for everyone. History shows us that when the very wealthy pay a higher tax rate everyone, including them, benefits. The problem is there is a subset of people in this country who cannot get the "lower taxes" broken record out of their head. Until these people come around and their leaders are voted out of office things won't change. We can keep cutting taxes, cutting spending, and take the misguided route of austerity until we hit another depression. I think that is the stupid way and I hope things don't go there.

                          Saying Issue A is worse than Issue B doesn't automatically turn Issue A into a wonderful thing. You actually can fix more than one problem.
                          I never said you couldn't. I just don't see welfare as a major problem in this country. I want to live in a country where those that fall through the cracks are provided for and given a hand up. I don't think we are spending extraordinary amounts on welfare right now. It's my personal opinion that this is a smoke screen for racism, sexism, classicism, and other general hateful ways of thinking. I see far far too much energy and hate going towards those on welfare than I do towards other areas where far far more of our tax dollars are spent. Or wasted.

                          And there's your bias. I don't form opinions based on what a liberal or conservative ought to think. I think for myself. I'm guessing you would find it horrifying for someone to think you had a conservative opinion, which would mean you're not really thinking about the issues, just following the herd.
                          So because to my very core I vehemently disagree with the majority of conservative policy that means I follow the herd? I make up my own mind, thank you very much. As much as I despise labels I happen to agree with what we in the US call "Liberal" policies, morals, and values. I've spent my entire life following politics and public policy to make my mind up. I can respect some conservative ideals even though I don't agree with them. But I think the Republican party has been overrun my the Tea Party whackos and they are now a joke. A terrible joke gone wrong that is bad for this country! That is my opinion. I think this because I pay attention to what is happening. Not because I follow some crowd.
                          Last edited by 0Angel0; 05-21-2013, 05:26 PM.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Rojo View Post

                            "The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed, the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually slaves of some defunct economist.”

                            ― John Maynard Keynes
                            So much hilarity in this quote...
                            Starting Date: Dec 18, 2010
                            Starting Weight: 294 pounds
                            Current Weight: 235 pounds
                            Goal Weight: 195 pounds

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by 0Angel0 View Post
                              I want tax policy that ensures a prosperous economy and opportunity for everyone. History shows us that when the very wealthy pay a higher tax rate everyone, including them, benefits. The problem is there is a subset of people in this country who cannot get the "lower taxes" broken record out of their head. Until these people come around and their leaders are voted out of office things won't change. We can keep cutting taxes, cutting spending, and take the misguided route of austerity until we hit another depression. I think that is the stupid way and I hope things don't go there.
                              When we had 0 income taxes, we became the strongest economy in the world by the end of the 19th century.
                              Starting Date: Dec 18, 2010
                              Starting Weight: 294 pounds
                              Current Weight: 235 pounds
                              Goal Weight: 195 pounds

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by 0Angel0 View Post
                                LOL you called me a liar and when I provided proof you are now just labeling a bunch of stuff "welfare" and hoping something sticks. It reeks of desperation. It's the governments job to distribute revenue into various parts of the economy and on different programs. That doesn't make it welfare. It's government spending. AKA doing it's job.
                                I used your reports and analyzed them and came up with a different perspective. If you don't like the sources I used then I suggest you present different ones.

                                If you consider nothing to be welfare then there is little welfare spending.

                                Medicaid and Medicare & Social Security are welfare programs.

                                social welfare program, any of a variety of governmental programs designed to protect citizens from the economic risks and insecurities of life. The most common types of programs provide benefits to the elderly or retired, the sick or invalid, dependent survivors, mothers, the unemployed, the work-injured, and families. Methods of financing and administration and the scope of coverage and benefits vary widely among countries.
                                social welfare program -- Encyclopedia Britannica

                                So you're either being intellectually dishonest or you truly believe that welfare programs have a definition beyond what is commonly accepted.

                                Personally, I don't believe the government's job is to do anything but provide for defense, a legal system and not much more. I provided how the public welfare used to be provided by private parties prior to the government taking it over and forcing people to provide it for it whether they can afford it or not. Regardless of their personal choices. You might like a nanny state that has little regard for rights except the ones that you like to have, I don't.
                                Last edited by kenn; 05-21-2013, 05:49 PM.
                                Starting Date: Dec 18, 2010
                                Starting Weight: 294 pounds
                                Current Weight: 235 pounds
                                Goal Weight: 195 pounds

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