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  • The Caveman Myth?

    This article says archeologists have found ancient stores of cultivated grains in Israel which indicate man has been farming for at least 23,000 years:

    Clarity Magazine » Blog Archive The Myth of the Caveman » Clarity Magazine

  • #2
    Sounds in line with the WAPF accounts of history.
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    “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

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    • #3
      This looks interesting:
      Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings: Evidence of Advanced Civilization in the Ice Age: Charles H. Hapgood: 9780932813428: Amazon.com: Books

      and
      http://www.nature.com/news/2009/0912...2009.1147.html

      100,000 years not 10,000. Grains= civilization
      Last edited by fiercehunter; 04-18-2013, 09:06 PM.

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      • #4
        The problem is, OF COURSE most of what they'll find is grains and stuff with any large groups of people. Large groups of people can not be nomadic, which meat eating requires as most prey is migratory. Get beyond a couple hundred people in one camp, especially back then, and you couldn't move easily to follow the herd.

        Also, camps for nomadic meat eating societies wouldn't leave much of anything behind. It's the people that stayed in one place for long periods of time that would leave stuff for future generations to find. Grains allow for staying in one place. Grains allow for civilization to grow beyond what would be the norm. However, if we're to think in terms of evolution (which I thought was the point of primal), humans are still adapting to grains in terms of function. Because it is the more readily available source of food, it could be that humans are slowly evolving into grain eaters, but we're not there yet. For the most part, as a species, due to tools and adaptation and long life spans, we evolve very slowly compared to other creatures that we can see evolving...the ones that have hundreds of generations for every generation of ours.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by fiercehunter View Post
          This article says archeologists have found ancient stores of cultivated grains in Israel which indicate man has been farming for at least 23,000 years:
          Not sure about the 'evidence' they provided, but I'd be interested on their thoughts on Australian Aborigines "discovered" about 200 years by white-man.

          200 years ago - Animal skin clothes, barefoot, spears, stone/wood tools, no clay pots, fire made by stick friction, nomadic life, temporary tree/bark/branch shelters, no farming/gardening, hunting wild animals, spear-fishing, gathering wild fruits/veg, constant slow moving- no grains except maybe occasional gathering a handful of wild stuff.
          Teeth and physical/mental health/strength good.

          Fast forward 200 years - Aboriginal man wears modern cloth clothes, wear's shoes, eats grains and other processed foods including fast food, drinks sodas and alcohols, doesn't move much, modern housing provided, modern medicine/dentistry provided, modern education provided.
          Teeth and physical/mental health/strength very poor.

          Regardless of the health implications since : It seems we have solid evidence that caveman exited as recently as 200 years ago in Australia - Or is this a myth?

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          • #6
            Holy crap, that article was full of New Age pseudoreligious bullsh*t.

            Evidence of grain eating isn't surprising. Humans are opportunistic omnivores, and will eat what they can. 23,000 years ago, some people looked at some ancient wild wheat-type grass and thought "Hmmm, maybe we can eat that." Maybe they didn't have much success with hunting in their area or something. They tried it, and it didn't kill them, so they continued eating it. It certainly wasn't widespread until the beginning of the Neolithic.

            Just because one group seems to have ate some grains a little earlier than previously thought, doesn't mean it's good or healthy.
            "Don't waste your time, or time will waste you."

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            • #7
              Originally posted by vtphoenix View Post
              The problem is, OF COURSE most of what they'll find is grains and stuff with any large groups of people. Large groups of people can not be nomadic, which meat eating requires as most prey is migratory. Get beyond a couple hundred people in one camp, especially back then, and you couldn't move easily to follow the herd.

              Also, camps for nomadic meat eating societies wouldn't leave much of anything behind. It's the people that stayed in one place for long periods of time that would leave stuff for future generations to find. Grains allow for staying in one place. Grains allow for civilization to grow beyond what would be the norm. However, if we're to think in terms of evolution (which I thought was the point of primal), humans are still adapting to grains in terms of function. Because it is the more readily available source of food, it could be that humans are slowly evolving into grain eaters, but we're not there yet. For the most part, as a species, due to tools and adaptation and long life spans, we evolve very slowly compared to other creatures that we can see evolving...the ones that have hundreds of generations for every generation of ours.
              We've had 100,000 years to adapt:
              Humans feasting on grains for at least 100,000 years | Observations, Scientific American Blog Network

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              • #8
                Then why was it killing me?
                Crohn's, doing SCD

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
                  Then why was it killing me?
                  Because wild grass seeds were seasonal... they didn't eat them all day all year round. Because without intensive agriculture and storage systems there would not have been enough to last more than the limited time in which they were harvestable. Especially with competition from other animals also eating the seed.
                  And there were pockets of people eating them, in places where wild grass seed was plentiful.
                  Not all places have wild grasses with easily harvestable seed, this was not a global phenomenon. People in other areas would not have been consuming wild grass seed at all, but other starch sources along with animals/insects. Roots, tubers, fruits, whatever was available whenever it was available... Omnivores are like that.

                  The idea that we have had 100,000 years to "adapt" does not account for the way that adaptation(evolution) actually works.
                  If it doesn't kill you before offspring is produced... then it's not a problem where evolution is concerned. No adaptation is necessary.
                  Science. It's pretty cool.
                  “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                  ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                  And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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                  • #10
                    I'm interested to follow this and see where the debate leads. For me, modern white flour processed foods are still out but I sometimes eat rice and that's a grain. The ancestral diet principles have done me so much good that I listen to all of the criticism on grains and generally avoid them, with extremely good results. Could it be that even if humans have always eaten them, they are still not optimum food and in a time when we don't need to eat them, why should we?

                    I sense we are at the beginning of a long scientific inquiry into grains which may lead to the conclusion that they are acceptable in some forms, but what that will be we don't know. Certainly the inflammatory properties of wheat seem to be a pretty much proven, but maybe only some wheats? Maybe GM wheat is worse?

                    But lets not think that just because grains are still in debate, that the general principles of primal eating are unsound, because from my experience they are completely correct as a way of attaining optimal health. I'll be avoiding grains and legumes until further notice!
                    Last edited by Owen; 04-24-2013, 02:26 PM.
                    Healthy is the new wealthy.

                    http://www.facebook.com/groups/ances...handnutrition/

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                    • #11
                      The sorcerors of Babylon innovated means of imposing eugenic controls on enslaved populations, among them alcoholism and malnutrition.
                      "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                      Jack london, "Before Adam"

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                      • #12
                        The sorcerors of Babylon innovated means of imposing eugenic controls on enslaved populations, among them alcoholism and malnutrition.
                        And TV.
                        Crohn's, doing SCD

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
                          And TV.
                          And fairy dust, the fairy dust is the best part... unless you can get whole fairies. They are crunchy, and have extra ZIP!
                          “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                          ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                          And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                            And fairy dust, the fairy dust is the best part... unless you can get whole fairies. They are crunchy, and have extra ZIP!
                            "for thou art crunchy and good with ketchup".....

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                            • #15
                              since i'm not basing my dietary choices on cavemen -- or ideas about cavemen -- it doesn't matter to me.

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