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Difference between "Primal" and "Weston A Price Foundation"??

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  • Difference between "Primal" and "Weston A Price Foundation"??

    It's been a little while since I've read intensively on what Mark Sisson is saying, and I never fully got into WAPF. Can anybody with more expertise break down the difference?

  • #2
    WAP encourages the consumption of properly soaked/fermented grains (including wheat) and beans. It also encourages lots of raw, pastured dairy products. Other than that they have a similar message - lots of whole, unprocessed foods, lots of fats, avoid bad oils, grass fed/pastured when possible, high nutrient density, etc.

    Oh - and WAP discourages consumption of pork.
    Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

    http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

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    • #3
      Originally posted by jammies View Post
      WAP encourages the consumption of properly soaked/fermented grains (including wheat) and beans. It also encourages lots of raw, pastured dairy products. Other than that they have a similar message - lots of whole, unprocessed foods, lots of fats, avoid bad oils, grass fed/pastured when possible, high nutrient density, etc.

      Oh - and WAP discourages consumption of pork.
      Doesn't Mark think dairy is good if you can digest it well? People from southern Africa to Northern Finland use dairy as a staple, so while not ALL people can consume it, there are certainly a good number who can. It's silly to say dairy is bad because half the people can't digest it well while the other half thrive off its nutrients.

      Doesn't Mark admit that soaked/fermented grains and legumes are basically acceptable, but not worth the effort or cost, and there are better options (like sweet potato)? Well, maybe you have a lot of time to work on your food, and maybe sweet potatoes aren't available to you since they're a hot climate food, and they don't store as well as plant seeds (nuts, seeds, grains, legumes).

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      • #4
        Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
        Doesn't Mark think dairy is good if you can digest it well? People from southern Africa to Northern Finland use dairy as a staple, so while not ALL people can consume it, there are certainly a good number who can. It's silly to say dairy is bad because half the people can't digest it well while the other half thrive off its nutrients.

        Doesn't Mark admit that soaked/fermented grains and legumes are basically acceptable, but not worth the effort or cost, and there are better options (like sweet potato)? Well, maybe you have a lot of time to work on your food, and maybe sweet potatoes aren't available to you since they're a hot climate food, and they don't store as well as plant seeds (nuts, seeds, grains, legumes).
        My interpretation of PB per Mark is that dairy fine if you tolerate it and soaked grain/legumes to be better than junk food, but nutritionally inferior and a hindrance to weight loss compared to more paleo foods.

        Personally, if I had a family to feed or became unable to continue to afford eating this way I would probably add in some soaked beans, corn, and rice in to my primal menu. I think it would be fine and still miles above the standard american diet. I would not add in regular wheat though if I could avoid it.
        Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

        http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by jammies View Post
          My interpretation of PB per Mark is that dairy fine if you tolerate it and soaked grain/legumes to be better than junk food, but nutritionally inferior and a hindrance to weight loss compared to more paleo foods.

          Personally, if I had a family to feed or became unable to continue to afford eating this way I would probably add in some soaked beans, corn, and rice in to my primal menu. I think it would be fine and still miles above the standard american diet. I would not add in regular wheat though if I could avoid it.
          I'm really curious now about soaked wheat. I'd like to try some and see if it's fine with me; regular wheat causes me problems, and I don't say that about many foods. It just seems like WAPF and Primal are arguing about such mundane details that it's absolutely silly. They come from different eras, and both use plenty of good research to come to their conclusions. WAPF was here first though!

          I think this is useful in discussing health with less-informed individuals. WAPF and Primal have significantly different connotations to people.

          And if I find soaked wheat or other kinds of grains/legumes to agree with me.... I think I will convert from Primal to WAPF to being my primary authority on nutrition.
          Last edited by wiltondeportes; 03-27-2013, 12:23 AM.

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          • #6
            If you are sensitive to gluten, remember gluten is not water-soluble. You can't soak it away. I doubt you could get it down to a safe consumption level (20ppm) through any normal fermentation process.

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            • #7
              I do fine with raw dairy (WAPF), fermented, sprouted grains (sour dough), but even when we followed WAPF, I just couldn't get into the prep cycles (a week to make bread? first you sprout, then you grind, then you ferment into a sourdough for 3 days, and then you bake). We would occasionally buy some artisanal WAP-style bread, but otherwise? Just skipped it.

              Otherwise, it's basically the same whole-foods message, and we largely ate the same as we do now, since we didn't make our own breads and stuff.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by zoebird View Post
                I do fine with raw dairy (WAPF), fermented, sprouted grains (sour dough), but even when we followed WAPF, I just couldn't get into the prep cycles (a week to make bread? first you sprout, then you grind, then you ferment into a sourdough for 3 days, and then you bake). We would occasionally buy some artisanal WAP-style bread, but otherwise? Just skipped it.

                Otherwise, it's basically the same whole-foods message, and we largely ate the same as we do now, since we didn't make our own breads and stuff.
                Hi Zoebird, I guess it's like wine, you can't just get it instantly... I suppose if you are into the sourdough bread thing you make it on a regular cycle, starting one batch even before eating the previous one.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                  It just seems like WAPF and Primal are arguing about such mundane details that it's absolutely silly. They come from different eras, and both use plenty of good research to come to their conclusions. WAPF was here first though
                  You hear Sally Fallon scoffing at Paleo/Primal but you don't really hear Mark (or Robb or Chris) saying much of anything. Plus, I know several people that were eating a WAPF diet and had significant health gains once going off grains completely. Nutritionally and health-wise, I think Primal > WAPF > most other diets > SAD

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                  • #10
                    It's all the same stuff. The study of ancestral health and the wisdom of not deviating from what we are adapted to eat. There is minor discussion of what exactly we are adapted to eat, but basically we know.

                    In Price's book he discusses some tribes (like some Swiss living in an isolated valley) who ate a piece of rye bread plus a BIG hunk of cheese the same size as the piece of bread. And these people had perfect teeth and strong bodies, unlike neighboring Swiss who had messed up teeth and disease from white flour and sugar. Also an African tribe who ate meat, cows blood, and milk...and had perfect health, unlike their white bread eating neighbors who were weak. These people were not Paleolithic era of course, they had entered the agriculture/dairy age to some degree, but were still doing okay. So that's where the differences come from perhaps, we have seen evidence of people doing okay on some cheese/dairy. WAP was there studying real tribes in the 1930s.

                    Paleo just goes back even further, but of course nobody was there to study these tribes. So it is more about digging up bones. It just says let's eliminate dairy/grains all together to be safe since those were not around then. No idea what Primal is since I haven't read Mark's book!

                    Anyhow I don't see the point of differentiating with "name brands". It's been around for millions of years, we are just picking it back up.

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                    • #11
                      Also, WAPF is big on BUTTER.

                      And from looking at Mark's "Quick and Easy Meals" cookbook he is too...

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jkr View Post
                        You hear Sally Fallon scoffing at Paleo/Primal but you don't really hear Mark (or Robb or Chris) saying much of anything. Plus, I know several people that were eating a WAPF diet and had significant health gains once going off grains completely. Nutritionally and health-wise, I think Primal > WAPF > most other diets > SAD
                        WAPF minus soaked grains and legumes equals Primal? This is very minor in my mind. I do think that forms of "bread" go way further back in history than agriculture. I know how to make a polenta type dish and a semi-bread type dish just out of acorns. Acorns were huge for certain Native Americans. I believe there could have easily been equivalents to the acorn in parts of the world with much more ancient histories. So we're arguing if it should be wheat, spelt, beans, peas, acorns, walnuts, chestnuts, pumpkin seeds, etc.

                        Some of these grains/nuts/seeds are very easy to harvest in the wild compared to something as difficult as wheat. It seems natural to store them for the winter, and create various meals out of them. "Breads" and "polentas" are natural results of this.

                        And Mark Sisson seems to agree with me on both of these points. I believe he's said that you *could* ferment your grains/legumes/nuts for better eating, but under the framework of our society's supermarket, you don't have to. He's also said that cheat days are fine.

                        I don't call them "cheat days" because that implies I'm in a 'best nutriton ever' competition that leads to nothing but ridiculous nutritional perfectionism. Because of this, I happily avoid breads and the like because I WANT to avoid them, not so I can feel happy about myself knowing I didn't "cheat".
                        Last edited by wiltondeportes; 03-28-2013, 12:30 AM.

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                        • #13
                          I'm certainly not saying these breads and meals should be preferred to starchy tubers, melons, and squash. These "less than ideal" foods can still be thrived on if everything else is 'right'. I approach the idea of wellness slightly different than some here because I'm not just thinking in terms of the supermarket's incredible assortment of everything. I also want to know the practical side, the "if you have to" side, the survival and self-sufficient side for ALL different climates everywhere on Earth, not just sunny California.

                          And plus, I don't have a faith or authority attitude about nutrition. If that were so, I'd be sticking to Primal 100% of the time. I sometimes save my willpower and time for other tasks in life than getting that last 10% of nutrition.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by fifer View Post
                            Hi Zoebird, I guess it's like wine, you can't just get it instantly... I suppose if you are into the sourdough bread thing you make it on a regular cycle, starting one batch even before eating the previous one.
                            Yes. Usually you have the ability to bake bread 3-5x a week so you just keep things rolling out to make that happen.

                            I've noticed, too, that WAPF come in "kinds." I suppose it's like Primals. You have carnivore, VLC, LC, perfect health, etc. You have some that are more paleo and others that are hitting that 20% hard.

                            Well, with WAPF, I noticed that there were several kinds:

                            Bakers -- these folks were major into making their fermented breads, and boy did they. Not just sour dough, but fermented everything -- banana bread, zuccini bread, apple-walnut bread, blueberry muffins. These folks mostly eat baked goods and butter, and then usually have a meal in the evening of meat, veg, and baked goods with butter.

                            Fermenters -- these folks love to ferment. They ferment salsas, kim chis, pickles, sauerkrauts, and make all natural sodas, kombacha, or similar beverages. Since most of these take a week, and then it takes a week to eat what you made, and they store well, you can just keep an endless cycle going. These folks are more likely to consume their veggies in the fermented form, fresh fruits, meats and raw dairy -- looking closest to the carnivore diet, really. They mostly eat meat, some dairy, and the veg amounts they eat are all fermented and in small quantities. They go paleo easy. In fact, they look paleo-carnivore.

                            Paleo-WAPF -- these are folks like us who follow the WAPF but cbf to ferment-to-bake or ferment. As such, everything on the safe and approved lists are things that come unprocessed from local farms and/or farmers markets. Veggies, fruit, raw dairy, and pastured meats. But, there are no strictures on grains/etc -- so it is a pretty awesome treat when an artisanal baker who makes WAPF bread opens in your 'hood. So you might buy a loaf a week, and have a slice of bread or two a day with the old brekkie.

                            WAPF-lite: these folks follow the basics WAPF stuff, BUT they go for the "second best" in the shopping guide. This usually means buying the best meats/veg they can afford, skipping the dairy because they can't get to it raw, and finding a way to create the tastiest WAPF junk foods. They tend to make a lot of their own WAPF-style fudge.

                            WAPF-Fatties: I call them fatties because they mostly focus on eating fat, not because they are fat. Some of them eat about 3000 cals a day just from fat! It's amazing. When you go to the web site and you count up the calories for their "fertility diet" it's about 90% fat and 3000 calories per day. It's eggs, sweetbreads (glands) and liver (protein/vits/minerals), and then basically lard, marrow, raw butter, cod liver oil (lots and lots!), coconut oil. I know people who basically eat that each day. It's pretty much 90% fat, honestly. It's just not to my tastes.

                            WAPF moderates: these folks find a nice balance of all things WAPF. They eat a good amount of fat, a good amount of meat, dairy, eggs, veggies, fruit -- and they ferment, soak, sprout, and have their baking cycles as well. But, they might bake once a week or less, and ferment a bit for now and ferment more when they need it, etc. So, it's not like thye take up a WAPF food prep hobby.

                            We were more to the paleo side of things. So the transition here was easy. But friends of ours who are WAPF and bake their own bread (in fact, are major bakers), are like "how can you live without bread!?" and it's not that hard, really, because we hvae been "bread lite" for about 12 years now. I mean, fancy toast 1-3x a week is not exactly getting high on the bread hog, you know?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by zoebird View Post

                              I've noticed, too, that WAPF come in "kinds." I suppose it's like Primals. You have carnivore, VLC, LC, perfect health, etc. You have some that are more paleo and others that are hitting that 20% hard.
                              Wow! You put a lot of thought into that reply...loved it! Spot on. Have you read WAP's writings on the Maori? He really loved them and was amazed at their health, strength and intelligence 'pre-contact'. He wrote quite a bit on what they did right before we screwed them up.

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