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  • #31
    so...doesn't that support what I am saying?
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

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    • #32
      It does, I thought you were right which is why I posted what I did the first time
      Make America Great Again

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      • #33
        I see. Haha then there were 2
        "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

        Jack london, "Before Adam"

        Comment


        • #34
          In terms of body type preferences in contemporary culture I think you can't overlook the influence of class (not something Grok would have to consider). It seems to me the culture tends to prefer that which is most difficult to attain. For example the current preference for well defined muscles, tanned, generally fit body; to attain that body means you have to have a certain amount of leisure (or money to have plastic surgery) to work on your body. 150 yrs ago the preference would lean toward pale, soft skin w/o any visible muscles implying that you had the leisure to do nothing. Whatever is the most difficult to attain will be the most desirable.
          Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
            OK, I am not into super lean guys. I like defined muscles with some fat on them. Mark Sisson does not do it for me. I also am not at all into skinny fat guys. Nor fat guys (by fat I mean Michelin Man). I like guys that look like they could manhandle me.

            And the older I get, the more I learn that men really like something beyond the model type. They like meaty asses and boobs. I've even been surprised to hear that thighs are hot.

            And no one likes flab. Or fat rolls. Mostly it seems like defined shape is the preference.

            Back in the day, I doubt many "attractive" women looked like models- either runway models or fitness models as that low of body fat makes you unable to reproduce. Today's definition of the perfect body is related to being a clothes hanger and appealing to the gay men that seem to run the fashion industry. I also doubt that there were many shapeless, blob like women.

            Same with men- there probably were very few that somehow could achieve the Mark Sisson body where you somehow build muscle instead of fat.
            Yes, all of this. Check out anything fashion industry related and you'll see the same body types. Visit a porn site and you'll see a wide variety of body types and the mean tends toward the Christinia Hendricks type, not the Kate Moss type.

            As a dude, I don't want to look like Mark. First, I can't. Mark started as distance runner and distance runners are usually "light" for lack of a better world. I could do Primal to a T and I'm just not going to look like him. That's ok by me.

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            • #36
              I would argue that first you have to be gay in order to then pursue women based on what other men think you should be plowing. I was just showering and thinking about how social standards can shape what is considered a desirable woman, and thought that it indicates that men must not in general be attracted to women, or else how can they be cued to instead like this or that type of one? And the fact that there are men with "types." I always thought that anyone who said, "not my type" is not a heterosexual. "Fugly," that's one thing- but there are plenty of men who only want one kinda woman- that's pretty gay.
              "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

              Jack london, "Before Adam"

              Comment


              • #37
                Rojo I think that your Japanese example is more biochemical than cultural- their environment teaches them that they are demoted, powerless, futureless liabilities- when people are depressed or otherwise taught that they have no power, their testosterone declines dramatically.
                "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                Jack london, "Before Adam"

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Urban Forager View Post
                  In terms of body type preferences in contemporary culture I think you can't overlook the influence of class (not something Grok would have to consider). It seems to me the culture tends to prefer that which is most difficult to attain. For example the current preference for well defined muscles, tanned, generally fit body; to attain that body means you have to have a certain amount of leisure (or money to have plastic surgery) to work on your body. 150 yrs ago the preference would lean toward pale, soft skin w/o any visible muscles implying that you had the leisure to do nothing. Whatever is the most difficult to attain will be the most desirable.

                  One of the debates in anthropology is the role of culture. We can formulate "just so" theories about attractiveness as related to bring down wooly mammoths or shooting out babies, but people are far more complex than that because of the role culture plays in our survival. As a friend of mine used to say "if there was big money in fish-mongering, smelling like tuna would be hot".

                  For example, male body hair indicates high testosterone yet it hasn't been considered attractive in many years. How to explain that except for the fact that cultures have a life of their own.

                  Another weird example is the "grass eaters" of Japan:

                  He is a soshokukei danshi – herbivorous boy – a term coined two years ago by the commentator Maki Fukasawa to describe the proliferation of men who, in appearance and attitude, bear little resemblance to the two dominant Japanese male groups of the past century: soldiers and their peacetime offspring, corporate warriors.

                  The typical herbivore cares, sometimes a little too much, about his appearance, eats sparingly, prefers afternoon tea with female friends to an evening spent drinking and shows little interest in the obsession that consumes so many of his peers: sex.


                  Hard to understand this looking through a purely Darwinian lens. But if you open the aperature up a bit to take into account culture some explanations appear. The Grass Eaters are responding to Japan's economic malaise that doesn't offer them much reward. They're also responding to the previous generation of salarymen who worked/smoked/drank themselves into burnout. Environment effects culture which effects the environment, on and on.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
                    I was just showering and thinking about how social standards can shape what is considered a desirable woman, and thought that it indicates that men must not in general be attracted to women, or else how can they be cued to instead like this or that type of one? And the fact that there are men with "types." I always thought that anyone who said, "not my type" is not a heterosexual.
                    Because all human sexuality boils down to gay/not gay.

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                    • #40
                      uhhh
                      "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                      Jack london, "Before Adam"

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        that was in response to your duplicate post, not that other one that snuck in there in the time it took for me to type "uhhh"
                        "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                        Jack london, "Before Adam"

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I don't think there is a gay/straight dichotomy; I'm saying that men needed to be taught about having sex with women, and it didn't necessarily come naturally, but that they probably did all kindsa gay shit on their hunts as a general recreation.
                          "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                          Jack london, "Before Adam"

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Rojo View Post
                            One of the debates in anthropology is the role of culture. We can formulate "just so" theories about attractiveness as related to bring down wooly mammoths or shooting out babies, but people are far more complex than that because of the role culture plays in our survival. As a friend of mine used to say "if there was big money in fish-mongering, smelling like tuna would be hot".

                            For example, male body hair indicates high testosterone yet it hasn't been considered attractive in many years. How to explain that except for the fact that cultures have a life of their own.

                            Another weird example is the "grass eaters" of Japan:

                            He is a soshokukei danshi herbivorous boy a term coined two years ago by the commentator Maki Fukasawa to describe the proliferation of men who, in appearance and attitude, bear little resemblance to the two dominant Japanese male groups of the past century: soldiers and their peacetime offspring, corporate warriors.

                            The typical herbivore cares, sometimes a little too much, about his appearance, eats sparingly, prefers afternoon tea with female friends to an evening spent drinking and shows little interest in the obsession that consumes so many of his peers: sex.


                            Hard to understand this looking through a purely Darwinian lens. But if you open the aperature up a bit to take into account culture some explanations appear. The Grass Eaters are responding to Japan's economic malaise that doesn't offer them much reward. They're also responding to the previous generation of salarymen who worked/smoked/drank themselves into burnout. Environment effects culture which effects the environment, on and on.
                            America has similar people to the 'herbivorous boy'. Here's what I think is going on. The size of cities, towns, and school populations. Social media has proliferated. These are both contributing to massively huge social circles for people. This is essentially enlarging the size of your tribe. In a tribe, there's room for only so many leaders. The scientific term for this is alpha. The tribe size has gotten much larger, so people who once could have been alphas in their small pack might have to be a slight step below in this new social circle. Cliffs: just a few more alphas and a whoooole lot more worker bees means that the general population's demographics will show greater subservience in general.

                            The above goes for sexuality too. I think feminism's part in the sexual revolution has brought women up to modern times on what choices to make, partner wise. Since the state will basically take care of them if they have kids, they worry much less about the stability of the mate choice. Interestingly, I think this is closer to a primal-like situation in which the entire tribe took care of the kids no matter what. So, women are becoming more and more interested in polyamory (not officially but in practice). Tons of men complain about 'bullshit' feminism, but I see something at the heart of their complaints. Those are the men losing. The men who are leaders of the pack now have gazillions of women looking to mate with them because they've been somewhat freed from monogamy and a patriachy in general.

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                            • #44
                              Your assessment does not account for the fact that most people do not have any contact whatsoever with this super-tribe that you are talking about; I live in an area that has a population density comparable to Hong Kong, but it is not rare to not know anyone in your neighborhood. You are still brought up through a small controlled population with internal dynamics (school), then you go to college or work and find new little tribes.

                              I have 170 or so Contacts in my phone, but there are 1200 or so people just in my apartment complex. Most people's contacts lists roughly correspond to the size of a primal band.

                              lol and yo this "leaders of the pack" mate availability thing is definitely theory and not experience. There is no proliferation of women willing to be some guy's every-third-night or anything, not in my class or neighborhood anyway. I don't know a single man that is in any kind of relationship like that. Teenagers too, are not generally aligned this way.

                              And there is still a great stigma connected to relying on the State to provide for your children- in the middle and working and upper classes, women still seek a man that will feed and comfort them with luxuries and raise their children. In fact the scarcity dilemma makes this more pronounced and more dramatic, in my experience. I am calling it that by 2020, middle-class arranged marriages will be normal.
                              "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                              Jack london, "Before Adam"

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                America has similar people to the 'herbivorous boy'. Here's what I think is going on. The size of cities, towns, and school populations. Social media has proliferated. These are both contributing to massively huge social circles for people. This is essentially enlarging the size of your tribe. In a tribe, there's room for only so many leaders. The scientific term for this is alpha. The tribe size has gotten much larger, so people who once could have been alphas in their small pack might have to be a slight step below in this new social circle. Cliffs: just a few more alphas and a whoooole lot more worker bees means that the general population's demographics will show greater subservience in general.
                                My high school had 2000 people, 400 or so in my graduating class. Is that big?

                                It wasn't weird to not know people in your class. Because 400 is too big to manage according to our genetic dispositions and social processing capacity, everyone just broke off into smaller splinter tribal groups- you could identify them by their tribal-affiliation fashions. There were 40 or so "wiggers" (and a few token black kids- this was before They deconstructed and relocated the projects throughout suburbia), 40 or so "skaters", 40 or so "hippies," 40 or so "Honors kids/straights," 40 or so "jocks" and cheerleaders, etc. Multiplicities of tribes in venn diagrams. Each had their own internal leadership and followers and status standards, conflicts, and drama. You could then divide that into "the cool kids" and "the rest of us," where the cool kids were the respective internal hierarchs of the various tribes- even the Honors Kids made a few cool kids that socialized with the other tribal leadership.
                                "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                                Jack london, "Before Adam"

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