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  • And I am seeing that some were smacked not in anger, so I can accept that some people can do that. Doesn't mean I agree, but its peoples choice to raise their children how they want.
    Any more than that, it is abuse, and I just cannot see how you could be hitting someone like that causing that pain and truly love them. I don't believe anyone can tell me that is not true.

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    • my mom and day pulled my baby teeth out when they were dangly and bothering me, and it hurt and they loved me.
      "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

      Jack london, "Before Adam"

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      • Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
        my mom and day pulled my baby teeth out when they were dangly and bothering me, and it hurt and they loved me.
        OK that is not even close to the same thing. Their intent was not to cause pain to you to make you obey them.
        Not at all the same.

        Well I guess some abusers could use this as a tool, but I wouldn't think your parents were doing it to hurt you on purpose. Far out.

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        • Originally posted by Chaohinon View Post
          Go back and look at the context, though. Canio and I were (kinda off-topic) discussing the relationship dynamic of a relationship where the woman consented to being hit by her husband. I argued that this couple should not be allowed to have kids, because no doubt they'll utterly fail at protecting their rights and safety. Hell yes I advocate castration for shitty people, this planet has enough of them as it is.

          Violence begets violence, that's the entire basis of my position. But what do you do with a person who's already committed a violent act and proven themselves a danger to society? At that point all bets are off, you either lock them up or put them down.
          and I got where you were coming from. Also, for the record I do not beat my wife. She knows where I sleep and is ex-Israeli military. I am not suicidal even if I were prone to hitting people, which I am not.

          I was just bringing up the point that there are consenting adult couples who have such arrangements. Chaohinon feels rather strongly about such people. More power to him. I feel that consenting adults should be able to make decisions for themselves and if some woman/man wants rules and punishments then more power to them in the confines of a consenting relationship. Not my bag, but neither is multiple partners, homosexuality, or living with a roomate. To each their own.

          I do respect Chaohinon's opinion on the matter. I just don't agree.

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          • haha ayla you said that you couldn't imagine causing your kids pain, and I cited an example of a time and place where my parents caused me pain, and your reaction is, "oh well that doesn't count..."

            I'm sayin, obviously you can imagine it, you just have to first think that it's for the good of the child. Unless you thought that it was wrong for them to have pulled my irritating baby teeth danglies.
            "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

            Jack london, "Before Adam"

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            • stop twisting my words.
              Pulling out loose teeth is not the same. I can't say I will do that myself. But as for your parents, I don't think they would have been doing it to cause you pain just so you will obey. So not the same.

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              • So what I'm saying is, maybe you are the one assigning this "so they obey" motivation to parents that hit, when in their mind, they are thinking, "because it's good for the child," as in the case of pulling teeth.
                "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                Jack london, "Before Adam"

                Comment


                • for the record, now that I reflect on it, it's only my mom's father that I remember pulling my teeth, and he did it with bakery string and the bathroom door-knob.
                  "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                  Jack london, "Before Adam"

                  Comment


                  • That was so traumatic, the thread and the doorknob..
                    Scary yet exciting, money involved

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                    • Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
                      ... But as for your parents, I don't think they would have been doing it to cause you pain just so you will obey. ...
                      Do you think punishment is "so you will obey"?

                      My parents didn't have any concern over whether I obeyed or not. I can say this with some authority because we had exactly that discussion when I was young (well under 10) and I remember it. We used to joke about it even. It went something like this...

                      Parent: "In the Marine Corps when someone tells you to jump, you JUMP and ask how high on the way up. So when I tell you to jump, what are you going to do?"

                      Me: "Ask why."

                      They actively encouraged me, in many ways, to challenge authority - including theirs - and think for myself. That's actually a great deal of why public school and I didn't get along too well... at home I was expected to challenge and to disagree when I thought someone was wrong, as long as I could articulate why, but at school it just doesn't go over well when the 3rd grader explains in detail why the teacher is wrong about something. At home that would be accepted as normal, at school it got my parents called in for special conferences.

                      They didn't want obedience. They wanted my safety, both for myself and others.

                      Physical punishment only came when I did something that acutely endangered myself or others, especially when that danger was one they knew I was aware of, and even more specifically when I couldn't justify doing so in a reasonable way. I avoided punishment several times not by following the rules or avoiding harm/danger, but by being able to articulate a reason for the action I took. If, on the other hand, I did something that could've gotten someone killed, and my reason was a mumbled, "I don't know...." Well, that wasn't going to work out in my favor. The "sin" wasn't disobedience, it was thoughtlessness. In other words, they were attempting (correctly, I in hindsight believe) to encourage judgment. Usually with words, but (perhaps because I did some things that by today's standards would have people really freaked out) sometimes they didn't think words were enough.

                      Were they wrong? I'm happy with myself, I'm able to function in the business and social worlds fairly successfully, and I still have an independent streak several miles wide, so I think not.
                      Last edited by Him; 02-12-2013, 04:01 PM.

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                      • No spankings or hit, had a good disciplined household, never really did or had any trouble growing up -- other than at school which was mostly bullying and what i consider "institutionalized abuse" which allows for and even creates environments of bullying.

                        I have a young son. No spankings/hitting, and of course good discipline all around. It mostly just takes setting good boundaries and calmly keeping them.

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                        • Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
                          So what I'm saying is, maybe you are the one assigning this "so they obey" motivation to parents that hit, when in their mind, they are thinking, "because it's good for the child," as in the case of pulling teeth.
                          While I believe this is what those parents are thinking, I can also demonstrate through science (psychology and child development) that such is not the actual case. Try a google search and see.

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                          • Originally posted by Uncephalized View Post
                            Chaohinon, you are awesome. I have a man-crush on you after reading this thread.

                            BUT forced-castration threats, even meant in jest, are not a good way to reinforce your point, here. Bad call.
                            +1
                            Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                            Griff's cholesterol primer
                            5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                            Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                            TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                            bloodorchid is always right

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                            • I got hit and damn if I didn,t deserve it too sometimes. It got my attention and I behaved as a kid and I behave as an adult. It worked for me that's all I can say. Like all things in life reasonable care and balance are the keys

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                              • Originally posted by zoebird View Post
                                While I believe this is what those parents are thinking, I can also demonstrate through science (psychology and child development) that such is not the actual case. Try a google search and see.
                                There is hard science supporting the idea that the animal neurological pain/response system evolved to facilitate learning safety-critical lessons.

                                Apart from the whole MAO-A issue, is there really any hard science supporting the idea that deliberate activation of that part of our evolutionary heritage is harmful?

                                I agree that for individuals with genetic MAOA deficiencies there is a solid scientific case for avoiding physical punishment. Outside that subset of the population, though, I haven't seen credible science showing harm, and I've looked.
                                Last edited by Him; 02-13-2013, 07:16 AM.

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