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  • Originally posted by Him View Post
    Is it learned from the parents though?

    I have a friend with a ±1 year brother. Same parents, raised in the same house, etc.. My friend is one of the nicest and most conscientious people you could meet. His brother is an asshole of the "deliberately run down small animals with his car" variety. Even if you assume the difference is entirely learned vs. some neurological defect, how did the brothers learn such different lessons while basically sharing one childhood?

    I've known enough really cool people with "we don't talk about him/her" sibs/kids to think that parents really don't control much about how their kids turn out. Some take credit, some get blamed, but none really control.
    I think we are talking differences here... small children vs. children past the age of puberty in young adulthood.

    In small children that bratty/spoiled "asshole" behavior is learned from parental inconsistency and reinforcement of negative behaviors. That has been proven over and over again.
    This is what I was referring to.
    A young child since the topic was spanking.
    Because once you get into those older children... really?


    Once you get to puberty and into young adulthood things get more complicated re development.
    The outside world and peer groups play a much larger role in character development at this point and can have a huge impact during the survey period. As can perceived traumas... that are specific to the individuals temperament such as fighting in the home between parents (for instance one child my internalize the fighting while the other may not, and indeed may not see the parental fighting as an issue that affected them at all). During all of this of course the foundational character that was developed during early childhood is important, if the child feels like there are strong bonds this is better, and perceived fear or distrust creates more instability where family is concerned.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
      Down with authority(this statement goes for abusive parents too, I think JoanieL makes a good point)

      They're protecting us from all these dangerous criminals(prisons are overcrowded with those serving sentences for minor offenses, wasting tax payer dollars) but, who, protects us from them? These people are basically given free reign to use lethal force, and they're protected by the media lies, and their own inside corruption.
      Are you a 99er?
      Starting Date: Dec 18, 2010
      Starting Weight: 294 pounds
      Current Weight: 235 pounds
      Goal Weight: 195 pounds

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      • Originally Posted by Mr.Perfidy
        that is ignorant really to say that every cruel asshole kid just has failed parents. Some people are just born to be cruel assholes.
        Originally posted by Chaohinon View Post
        The only time this holds up is if a kid is born with a major chemical imbalance, like bipolar disorder. In which case hitting them is even more retarded than if they were normal.
        Sorry, Chaohinon, but I believe you are wrong. Yeah there are kids born to mothers who were on drugs which now affect the kids' behavior. But the reality is, while environment plays a roll a good portion of personality is inherited

        MAJOR PERSONALITY STUDY FINDS THAT TRAITS ARE MOSTLY INHERITED - NYTimes.com

        Scientists link defective gene to aggression: Inherited disorder could explain behaviour - UK - News - The Independent

        What Are The Causes Of A Sociopath? | LIVESTRONG.COM
        Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

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        • Originally posted by PrimalJewishAmericanPrincess View Post
          What I've learned from this entire thread
          -Some people that do not believe in hitting, also believe that there is nothing that you can do to change a child's behavior and that some kids are just assholes
          -Some people that do not believe in hitting, believe that all ass-hole-ness is learned and that you must carefully control every aspect of your child's life to ensure that they are not harmed and do not become assholes
          -Some people believe in hitting as a way to control and train them not to be assholes
          -Some people believe that in hitting them, they are assured to become assholes

          Most of all, I've learned that this entire cluster has been caused by one woman who came to a HEALTH AND FITNESS forum for PARENTING ADVICE.
          ive learned so many new things about myself as a person from this thread

          im weak
          dumb
          violent
          a monster
          should be sterilized

          anything else? Have i missed anything?
          beautiful
          yeah you are

          Baby if you time travel back far enough you can avoid that work because the dust won't be there. You're too pretty to be working that hard.
          lol

          Comment


          • So here's a trend in all of these pages....

            People who identify themselves with arguments that are against political coercion (ie, who do not accept that the police have a right to harm them anymore than anyone else does) seem to be generally pro-striking kids and from an environment where that was normal and not abusive,

            while people who identify themselves as in favor of using political violence to solve problems generally believe it to be monstrous and violent to hit their own children.


            Very curious.


            I wonder if the latter group is so against hitting their children because of the very fear/reward dynamic they wish to avoid. As in, the biggest baddest rapiest dick of them all (the State) warns them that hitting their kids is wrong, so they believe it.
            Last edited by Mr.Perfidy; 02-12-2013, 12:09 PM.
            "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

            Jack london, "Before Adam"

            Comment


            • Fwiw, I'm an anarchist. When I say violent parents should be sterilized, I'm offering to do it myself. For free.
              “The whole concept of a macronutrient, like that of a calorie, is determining our language game in such a way that the conversation is not making sense." - Dr. Kurt Harris

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              • Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
                not the point at all- lets say that all of the police everywhere are polite nanny trained jedi knights with no violent impulses...

                still, no one ever asked me to agree to a law. No one said, "Yo Perfidy- you down with this? You consent?" Men just show up intent on caging me, or making me work for nothing (pay fines) because I violated their idea of good behavior.

                So how is calling the cops acceptable and non-violent, but smacking a kid that is attacking another kid an act of violence?
                I was responding to your idea of punching 40 random people in the face.
                That isn't an arbitrary idea of good behavior. You violated those 40 peoples right to not get punched in the face.

                What I said is that they would either hit you themselves, or report you to the police to be handled by the courts without violence.
                If you don't like that idea... don't violate other peoples rights to go about free and unmolested.



                The fact that you people think every single cop is a thug is just weird.
                But go ahead and cling to your little conspiracy theories that they are all out to get you! Geez.
                Prisons are overcrowded with people serving time for minor offences because of LAW MAKERS and government.
                Particularly the federal government.
                And people who commit violent crimes are let off with less sentence than they need... often plead down to what looks like a minor infraction.
                Lots of local police let small frivolous infractions that could go to jail off with simple confiscation and destruction of the infraction.
                And a warning not to be out riding around with stuff so that they get caught.
                “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

                Comment


                • lol yeah...

                  I don't think that's anarchism...Not in any sense that I understand the term (hoppe, Lewrockwell.com, Mises, Bastiat, etc)
                  "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                  Jack london, "Before Adam"

                  Comment


                  • I was responding to your idea of punching 40 random people in the face.
                    That isn't an arbitrary idea of good behavior. You violated those 40 peoples right to not get punched in the face
                    you are changing it to punching.

                    I said Slapping, in the context of an argument about whether slapping injures. My point was, even after a spree of 40 slaps on 40 faces, 4 days later, there would be no physical evidence that it ever happened. As in, slapping is not injurious to physical health. It's just shocking to the mind and senses. As in it is not abusive as a single act.

                    Obviously habitually shocking and terrifying someone though is emotional abuse. It isn't physical abuse though to get slapped.
                    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                    Jack london, "Before Adam"

                    Comment


                    • Yrs ago in Goldwaters, Phoenix, AZ, I saw a woman beating the hell out of her little girl's butt and legs.. her legs were beet red. No one was doing anything but saying quit, quit. So, I, being 25 and knowing everything, ya know, stepped between them and told the fool woman that's enough. She threatened to 'take me down' and I countered with she had no idea what a left hook I had. By then the security guard had walked up and split us all up.

                      My husband reminded me of that afternoon recently when we were talking about AZ, and I asked him wonder where that cute little girl is today. He replied, probably beating the hell out of her cute little girl somewhere.

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                      • yeah beating on a kid, and slapping a kid once in the face because he's never been slapped, but thinks its swell to beat up his brother- different.

                        I typically disapprove of, intercede even, public child beatings. Not at all what I am advocating. I was counselling the OP from another thread that right now, her son's idea of violence is just an idea, and was comparing it to trying to explain to him about an orgasm. How can words do that? Slap his ignorant face and school him. Then he would know, "Oooohh that's violence."
                        "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                        Jack london, "Before Adam"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
                          It sounded like her son had never been hit, according to her thread, and her later posts in this thread, so, untrue.



                          as literally every square foot of the planet earth is claimed by monopolist aggressors (governments), "larger and more powerful people have authority because of their ability to impose violence on others" is in fact the rule of the earth. When they are unjustly harassed on the road as adults and fucked with an unnecessary fine, they will understand this as a property of aggression power dynamics, rather than act like some people I know and assume some kind of guilt over it.



                          I was talking about hitting the kid that hits his brother...an act of aggression. It is protecting the brother from more aggression and teaching him that aggressors get smacked down.




                          I just don't think this to be true. Where in any relationships anywhere ever do you find some kind of absolute inability to commit treachery? Why should people not learn early on that all hands might bring hurt? A property of hands is their ability to harm...

                          Geez why are you still focussed on that. I have updated that thread, and it was not as bad as I thought.
                          My son doesn't hit his brother all the time, not even every day. And when he does, its because of not yet knowing how to express his anger. He is not being nasty to his brother. We are working through how to deal with anger. He is 5 for FFS, not 12.


                          Originally posted by Kochin View Post
                          I don't think I would ever smack in anger. It just makes the anger more intense and leads to stress. A smack serves two purposes:
                          1.- To break a child out of an emotional meltdown. (I used to have panic attacks and physical pain was what helped me break out. I'd usually just use cold water on myself, but a child may not be aware of how to do that and probably wouldn't choose to.)
                          2.- When the negative behaviour can't be talked about. If you have a two-year old in the habit of climbing book-cases, how do you explain bone-fractures, severe pain, crushed skulls and death to them? What is more likely to traumatize a kid that age: connecting "book-shelf-climbing" and "smack to the bum" or having someone show them what they'd look like if a shelf ever fell on them? Because, to a kid that age, death is something sad that just happens to others, not something that happens to THEM and explaining "a falling book-shelf can hurt you" may not suffice. The idea of punishment acts as the main deterrent until the child understands the danger.

                          As for fear: why don't you climb on the handrails of bridges? Why don't you stick your hand in fire? Fear is the main reason most of us are alive. But young kids, who often struggle to understand concepts such as death and the frailty of the human form, are fearless, at least inasmuch as they don't fear abstract concepts, or things they have not experienced. Until they have felt the consequences (burnt hand) they won't stop endangering themselves for fun (sticking hand out to "catch" a flame). They're even more reckless when it comes to the lives and safety of other lifeforms, like babies. A fear of physical pain could be the only thing between some kids and an encounter with death.

                          Physical punishment may only be required twice in a child's entire life, but, when it's required, a parent shouldn't just "be nice" and let the kid continue to endanger themselves.
                          Its up to us to supervise our children when not at home, and when we are, we attach heavy things to walls. They need to be able to explore their environment safely.

                          Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy
                          I smack my wife!
                          Wow, just wow.

                          Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
                          Bruises and a bloody nose and black eyes are not injuries...They go away and leave no impaired anything after a few days.

                          Also obviously when I was counselling that mother to smack her kid as he attacked his brother, "so as not to cause any kind of physical damage" is implied.

                          You are off base. I can leave my front door right now and smack 40 people, and in 3 days, there will not be evidence that it ever happened except in their minds.
                          Re-read my thread. He didn't attack his brother, it is not at all like that.
                          Do you think children should just automatically know how to deal with their emotions? We have to help them through that.

                          Originally posted by PrimalJewishAmericanPrincess View Post
                          What I've learned from this entire thread
                          -Some people that do not believe in hitting, also believe that there is nothing that you can do to change a child's behavior and that some kids are just assholes
                          -Some people that do not believe in hitting, believe that all ass-hole-ness is learned and that you must carefully control every aspect of your child's life to ensure that they are not harmed and do not become assholes
                          -Some people believe in hitting as a way to control and train them not to be assholes
                          -Some people believe that in hitting them, they are assured to become assholes

                          Most of all, I've learned that this entire cluster has been caused by one woman who came to a HEALTH AND FITNESS forum for PARENTING ADVICE.
                          Are you serious? This thread has other sections, and I knew there was other parents who did things the same way as me.

                          This thread is not my fault. This guy is crazy. Read his other posts.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
                            yeah beating on a kid, and slapping a kid once in the face because he's never been slapped, but thinks its swell to beat up his brother- different.

                            I typically disapprove of, intercede even, public child beatings. Not at all what I am advocating. I was counselling the OP from another thread that right now, her son's idea of violence is just an idea, and was comparing it to trying to explain to him about an orgasm. How can words do that? Slap his ignorant face and school him. Then he would know, "Oooohh that's violence."
                            WTF are you a bit slow? This is about a 5 year old, who sometimes hits his brother because he is angry, because he is still learning how else to express that. And we are working through that.
                            I have been explaining to him we use our words to express our anger, not our hands. He is getting it. Remember again, he is 5.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
                              you are changing it to punching.

                              I said Slapping, in the context of an argument about whether slapping injures. My point was, even after a spree of 40 slaps on 40 faces, 4 days later, there would be no physical evidence that it ever happened. As in, slapping is not injurious to physical health. It's just shocking to the mind and senses. As in it is not abusive as a single act.

                              Obviously habitually shocking and terrifying someone though is emotional abuse. It isn't physical abuse though to get slapped.
                              Since I have been bruised from I believe the term you used was "smack".
                              And since I have been bruised rather often in my years from openhanded smacks... and bruises are injuries...
                              And since even an hour or two of redness and swelling constitutes proof of battery... yeah.
                              You would be found guilty of 40 counts of battery if you were to go out and "smack" 40 people in the face and they all reported it.

                              Because you don't have the right to go around hitting people.
                              “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                              ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                              And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

                              Comment


                              • lol Ayla I pointed out that I smack my wife because I wish to discuss why the anti-hitting crowd is so anti-slap, as if slapping is the same thing as scarring with hot pokers.

                                Your husband/man whatever, he probably slaps you too. It is quite normal human behavior, the slap, and has many contexts because it dramatically affects the senses of the slapped and slapper without incurring any real harm to either. As in, ass-cheeks...smack 'em.
                                "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                                Jack london, "Before Adam"

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