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  • Originally posted by Uncephalized View Post
    But do you really think it's relevant whether you think of yourself as scary? You are many times the size of a child. I would be terrified if a person twice my height was chasing me around and trying to hit me. Hell, I would be terrified of the cuddliest teddy bear if it was huge and trying to do me harm. Think about it. Children and adults do not live in the same perceptual world.
    I understand your point completely. My remark was meant flippantly. I was also not advocating chasing anyone around. I was also not suggesting screaming at them, threatening them, degrading them verbally, or abusing them mentally all of which can be done by people of all sizes, all sexes, and at any time all without ever laying a finger on a child. The point being that any parenting technique can be scary given the method in which it is delivered. The OP seems to think that physical contact with a child in the scope of discipline (for lack of a better term) is automatically scary. I would say that that is not necessarily the case.

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    • Originally posted by Uncephalized View Post
      Kids will learn about violence from other kids, typically at a very early age. That's no reason to teach them that their parents are to be obeyed out of fear (and yes, if you use physical pain as a reinforcement, fear is exactly what you are instilling--to varying degrees depending on the sensitivity of the child). You're teaching them that larger and more powerful people have authority because of their ability to impose violence on others.

      This is entirely different from learning about violence, and the correct responses to it (which should be, in my opinion 1) avoidance followed by 2) swift and decisive defeat of the aggressor in case it's unavoidable and finally 3) survival by any means necessary if the aggressor can't be stopped. In no case should you EVER teach a child to aggress, which is what you are doing if you escalate to hitting them for a non-violent offense), in a progressive and relatively safe peer environment--progressive in that the child and his/her peers will naturally become more capable as they age, and relatively safe as in age-appropriate environment and adult supervision.

      There is no shortage of violence and pain in this world, which an attentive parent can use instructively to illuminate the pitfalls of the world the child needs to learn to navigate. The parent doesn't need to be one more source of danger.
      .
      I've been reading the past 10 pages waiting to make the comments here. You don't need to slap your kid to teach them about violence. Others kids will most likely have beat you to this! This is where you can explain that if they didn't like it then don't do it to others. Most toddlers go through a biting stage and learn quickly from other kids not to bite this way as well.

      Comment


      • "My father beat the hell out of me. All it did was make me fantasize about the day I could murder him." - Don Draper

        That's pretty much how I feel about my family. I pity people who say things like, "my parents hit me, and I turned out fine." Because in saying that, you're desperately trying to run from the fact that you're not fine. I'm not fine, and I've come to terms with that.

        We could run in circles all day arguing about the ethics of hitting kids, but just look at the empirical evidence. What happens when you beat your dog for years on end? Eventually it's going to attack someone. Take a stroll through a bad part of town late at night, and you'll most likely be accosted by someone whose parents taught them the value of using violence to get their way. And if you're one of those parents, what are you going to do if your kid grows up to be 6'4", 230 lbs? You better hope he doesn't remember, or that you succeeded at making him fear you.
        “The whole concept of a macronutrient, like that of a calorie, is determining our language game in such a way that the conversation is not making sense." - Dr. Kurt Harris

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        • Originally posted by Chaohinon View Post
          "My father beat the hell out of me. All it did was make me fantasize about the day I could murder him." - Don Draper

          That's pretty much how I feel about my family. I pity people who say things like, "my parents hit me, and I turned out fine." Because in saying that, you're desperately trying to run from the fact that you're not fine. I'm not fine, and I've come to terms with that.

          We could run in circles all day arguing about the ethics of hitting kids, but just look at the empirical evidence. What happens when you beat your dog for years on end? Eventually it's going to attack someone. Take a stroll through a bad part of town late at night, and you'll most likely be accosted by someone whose parents taught them the value of using violence to get their way. And if you're one of those parents, what are you going to do if your kid grows up to be 6'4", 230 lbs? You better hope he doesn't remember, or that you succeeded at making him fear you.
          You are generalizing way too much here.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by kenn View Post
            What do you recommend?
            For someone wanting to learn self defense over sport, and as far a "styles" go, most Krav Maga stuff looks pretty good. I say that without having studied KM. You're just more likely to find a school around the country.

            My background is in TKD, Arnise (a lot of knife self defense), Jeet Kune Do, some Aiki-jutsu and Jujitsu. What's most important is who you are training from, what's their background, and their expertise. With the exception of TKD all my training was under a former police officer and others in the organization. The advantage of that was in getting taught by people having first hand experience....which isn't the same as getting instruction from a TKD instructor who may have never been in a street encounter in his life.

            You will fight the way you practice. So if you take a Judo class you will learn some good take down tactics (Judo is a good sport for kids and useful on playground fight) but you will not learn how to jab your finger into an attacker's eyes. So if and when you get into a street encounter your training, or lack thereof, will kick in (no pun intended) you'll resort to that training. You might instinctively go for an arm bar when a strike to the attacker's eyes would've quicker and easier. It won't look good on a movie set, though.

            Brazilian Jujutsu (BJJ) is very useful to learn. It maybe the best system for learning how to fight/wrestle on the ground. But the sport side of BJJ teaches to deliberately take the fight to the ground. That's not something you want to deliberately do on the street. What if he's got a knife or a friend of his near by has one? You can't run away. TKD doesn't even teach you to wrestle or go to the ground.

            These are some videos from my main instructor https://www.youtube.com/results?q=ho...=w1&authuser=0. We incorporated a lot of drills from Arnise to build flow but we also would mix it up to introduce an element of chaos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzgdOzJASeM


            If you want to learn Close Quarter Combat (CQC), and not just a martial sport, you got to shop around and interview the instructor. If he's a former navy seal or army ranger with a good martial arts background you're probably good to go. In an instructor, I want an emphasis on breaking apart situations/scenarios and then using strategy and tactics to deal with that situation. What are the what/ifs? What improvised weapons are in the environment? Incorporate training guns and knives, and multiple attackers. A seasoned police officer who's had to mix it up a lot is a good resource.
            Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

            Comment


            • My parents never really had to spank me because I feared my mother's "stink face" more than anything. She'd narrow her eyes and purse her lips and inhale sharply, and I'd immediately stop doing whatever it was that was making her make that face.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by canio6 View Post
                I understand your point completely. My remark was meant flippantly. I was also not advocating chasing anyone around. I was also not suggesting screaming at them, threatening them, degrading them verbally, or abusing them mentally all of which can be done by people of all sizes, all sexes, and at any time all without ever laying a finger on a child. The point being that any parenting technique can be scary given the method in which it is delivered. The OP seems to think that physical contact with a child in the scope of discipline (for lack of a better term) is automatically scary. I would say that that is not necessarily the case.
                Agree. I still think that intentionally causing pain is an inappropriate form of discipline, though.
                Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

                My Primal Journal

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Uncephalized;

                  [B
                  There is no shortage of violence and pain in this world, which an attentive parent can use instructively to illuminate the pitfalls of the world the child needs to learn to navigate. The parent doesn't need to be one more source of danger.
                  [/B]
                  I don't know if you are planning on having kids, but I think the world could use more parents like you. IMO children need a safe place to explore the world, in order for them to do that they need to trust their parents. If the parent becomes the source of danger then the whole world is suspect, it can take a life time of effort to unlearn that lesson. The relationship with the parent is the the primary template for all other relationships.

                  Neither I nor my husband were raised by careful or thoughtful parents because of that we decided to raise or son differently. We never spanked him or insisted that he say thank you and please instead we say those things as a matter of course. We now have a wonderful 14 yr. old who always says thank you and please and he even opens doors for people, which we never told him to do. We treat him with respect and he treats us with respect.
                  Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Uncephalized View Post
                    Agree. I still think that intentionally causing pain is an inappropriate form of discipline, though.
                    Sure, one could argue that a small pain now is better than a large pain later, but that is for each person to decide on their own.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Scott F View Post
                      For someone wanting to learn self defense over sport, and as far a "styles" go, most Krav Maga stuff looks pretty good. I say that without having studied KM. You're just more likely to find a school around the country.

                      My background is in TKD, Arnise (a lot of knife self defense), Jeet Kune Do, some Aiki-jutsu and Jujitsu. What's most important is who you are training from, what's their background, and their expertise. With the exception of TKD all my training was under a former police officer and others in the organization. The advantage of that was in getting taught by people having first hand experience....which isn't the same as getting instruction from a TKD instructor who may have never been in a street encounter in his life.

                      You will fight the way you practice. So if you take a Judo class you will learn some good take down tactics (Judo is a good sport for kids and useful on playground fight) but you will not learn how to jab your finger into an attacker's eyes. So if and when you get into a street encounter your training, or lack thereof, will kick in (no pun intended) you'll resort to that training. You might instinctively go for an arm bar when a strike to the attacker's eyes would've quicker and easier. It won't look good on a movie set, though.

                      Brazilian Jujutsu (BJJ) is very useful to learn. It maybe the best system for learning how to fight/wrestle on the ground. But the sport side of BJJ teaches to deliberately take the fight to the ground. That's not something you want to deliberately do on the street. What if he's got a knife or a friend of his near by has one? You can't run away. TKD doesn't even teach you to wrestle or go to the ground.

                      These are some videos from my main instructor https://www.youtube.com/results?q=ho...=w1&authuser=0. We incorporated a lot of drills from Arnise to build flow but we also would mix it up to introduce an element of chaos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzgdOzJASeM


                      If you want to learn Close Quarter Combat (CQC), and not just a martial sport, you got to shop around and interview the instructor. If he's a former navy seal or army ranger with a good martial arts background you're probably good to go. In an instructor, I want an emphasis on breaking apart situations/scenarios and then using strategy and tactics to deal with that situation. What are the what/ifs? What improvised weapons are in the environment? Incorporate training guns and knives, and multiple attackers. A seasoned police officer who's had to mix it up a lot is a good resource.
                      And for kids?
                      Starting Date: Dec 18, 2010
                      Starting Weight: 294 pounds
                      Current Weight: 235 pounds
                      Goal Weight: 195 pounds

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by canio6 View Post
                        Sure, one could argue that a small pain now is better than a large pain later, but that is for each person to decide on their own.
                        Except that there is always a way for the parent to teach the same thing that simply doesn't involve the hitting.
                        “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                        ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                        And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Urban Forager View Post
                          I don't know if you are planning on having kids, but I think the world could use more parents like you. IMO children need a safe place to explore the world, in order for them to do that they need to trust their parents. If the parent becomes the source of danger then the whole world is suspect, it can take a life time of effort to unlearn that lesson. The relationship with the parent is the the primary template for all other relationships.

                          Neither I nor my husband were raised by careful or thoughtful parents because of that we decided to raise or son differently. We never spanked him or insisted that he say thank you and please instead we say those things as a matter of course. We now have a wonderful 14 yr. old who always says thank you and please and he even opens doors for people, which we never told him to do. We treat him with respect and he treats us with respect.
                          My wife and I do plan to have kids in a few years, yes. Thanks for the vote of confidence, but we'll see how it goes when we get there. I think it's great that treating your kid that way worked out.
                          Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

                          My Primal Journal

                          Comment


                          • Kids will learn about violence from other kids, typically at a very early age.
                            It sounded like her son had never been hit, according to her thread, and her later posts in this thread, so, untrue.

                            That's no reason to teach them that their parents are to be obeyed out of fear (and yes, if you use physical pain as a reinforcement, fear is exactly what you are instilling--to varying degrees depending on the sensitivity of the child). You're teaching them that larger and more powerful people have authority because of their ability to impose violence on others.
                            as literally every square foot of the planet earth is claimed by monopolist aggressors (governments), "larger and more powerful people have authority because of their ability to impose violence on others" is in fact the rule of the earth. When they are unjustly harassed on the road as adults and fucked with an unnecessary fine, they will understand this as a property of aggression power dynamics, rather than act like some people I know and assume some kind of guilt over it.

                            This is entirely different from learning about violence, and the correct responses to it (which should be, in my opinion 1) avoidance followed by 2) swift and decisive defeat of the aggressor in case it's unavoidable and finally 3) survival by any means necessary if the aggressor can't be stopped. In no case should you EVER teach a child to aggress, which is what you are doing if you escalate to hitting them for a non-violent offense),
                            I was talking about hitting the kid that hits his brother...an act of aggression. It is protecting the brother from more aggression and teaching him that aggressors get smacked down.


                            There is no shortage of violence and pain in this world, which an attentive parent can use instructively to illuminate the pitfalls of the world the child needs to learn to navigate. The parent doesn't need to be one more source of danger.
                            I just don't think this to be true. Where in any relationships anywhere ever do you find some kind of absolute inability to commit treachery? Why should people not learn early on that all hands might bring hurt? A property of hands is their ability to harm...
                            "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                            Jack london, "Before Adam"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by kenn View Post
                              And for kids?
                              no. I was talking to an adult who has a 14 year old who himself is planning to studying Aikido for "self defense." Don't confuse sport with self defense training. And don't let the cool moves in Aikido trick you into an illusion this stuff is very useful in self defense and will allow you to handle and control an attacker.
                              Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                                Except that there is always a way for the parent to teach the same thing that simply doesn't involve the hitting.
                                Fair enough. I am not trying to advocate hitting anyone. I am merely trying to bring up the idea that it is far more often the people involved rather than the technique used that makes a difference not that any one is better than the other.

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