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  • Thanks Itchy. My son wants me to look into where he can do this, so will ask around school tomorrow and see where other kids go.

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    • I have 2 kids who now are wonderful grownups. And I firmly believe there is a big difference between violence and "a loud pop on their behinds". First tell nice and soft, they may genuily not know what is the right behaviour. If that doesn't help - tell stronger to show that you mean it. If they hear you and understand but still go on - pop on behind is the right way to solve the problem. That is the place where little kids brain "on" switch is located. Recently one of my friends even said that till certain age human children and animals have the same psychology. Well, in a sense yes. Maybe there is some research behind this, maybe its her experience. Anyway, with the same approach I have wonderful dogs and horses. Sure, there is a distinction between animals and humans, but as regards attitudes, all are nice, kind, honest.

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      • Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
        To use your own words... I have to disagree on this one.

        While I'm a fairly "well adjusted" adult who as you put it "can (and does) look after herself" it took a load of hard work on my part to get me here... along with years of therapy. And while I'm functional, I'm also deeply scarred and still a work in process, still fighting back against the psychological damage that was done to me.
        As you somewhat acknowledge, though, whatever was done to you is not what most people are talking about. To imply that they are even on the same spectrum is highly misleading. There really isn't any room for a slippery slope either, since (I'm 99.9% sure the 0.1% is because I don't know your exact story) that what you experienced has an absolute difference from what kids who received physical punishment experienced.

        Think about it from a workplace perspective. If I transfer someone to a different role because I need to fill the other role that's good business. If I transfer the same person to the same role because I am angry and want to retaliate against them for not going on date with me, that's unethical (not to mention a lawsuit). There is no slippery slope where if I transfer enough people eventually I'll start asking my subordinates on dates and getting angry when they refuse. There is an absolute need for me to avoid retaliation , not transfers. It would be wrong for me to not transfer my people because transfers can be a means of retaliation.

        To me it looks like you are someone who was retaliated against, and, because the only transfer you've experienced was a means of retaliation, you are now arguing against transferring employees. You have something to argue against, absolutely you do, but you have misidentified your target.

        Hitting anyone (child or not) because you are angry and want to make the person suffer is at best stupid, and as a general rule it's both ethically wrong and legally forbidden.

        Hitting someone (child or not) as a way of engaging a system that has evolved in animals over billions of years to help individuals learn avoidance of dangerous situations and behaviors can be a very intelligent way of helping, and may at times be your ethical if not legal duty.

        There is no slippery slope between those acts.

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        • How many people, in hindsight are grateful for a few swats on the behind and the lessons learned? I'm not talking about beatings here and yes there is a huge difference. With all the people and all the different cultures/customs in this world there is no one right way. If we all lived in self contained little bubbles and could spend every minute with our children explaining everything in a way they could understand that would be great(not really)but in the real world both parents often have to work, kids go off to school, and there are influences all around that are beyond your control. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a simple spanking as long as there is also talk and understanding.

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          • Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
            Thanks Itchy. My son wants me to look into where he can do this, so will ask around school tomorrow and see where other kids go.
            Go together and practice at home. Your son will LOVE wrestling with his mom.
            "It's a great life, if you don't weaken.". John Buchan

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            • Originally posted by whitebear View Post
              How many people, in hindsight are grateful for a few swats on the behind and the lessons learned? I'm not talking about beatings here and yes there is a huge difference. With all the people and all the different cultures/customs in this world there is no one right way. If we all lived in self contained little bubbles and could spend every minute with our children explaining everything in a way they could understand that would be great(not really)but in the real world both parents often have to work, kids go off to school, and there are influences all around that are beyond your control. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a simple spanking as long as there is also talk and understanding.
              I got whoopings as a kid. My three younger siblings did too. And I have to say, I can't imagine NOT getting them. My mom's dad was Navy and a disciplinarian, she grew up with that and she brought that with her when she formed her own family. I got spanked and it didn't matter where I was, or what I thought I could get away with, my mom could find a switch in a heartbeat and we'd make that dreaded trip to a "quiet place" lol.

              I learned pretty quick what was right and what was wrong. I went through school without getting into much trouble at all. So did my first little brother. My two younger siblings are still in school, one in high school and one in junior high, and both are well behaved.

              The way my parents did things worked, in my opinion. My mom would handle the spankings and my dad would handle the explaining why we got it part. We're all stubborn children (a trait inherited from both parents) and so we took a little longer to get the point I think, but we got the point.

              I look at all the children today who just go wild and crazy in public places -- the stores, churches, ect -- and can't imagine my siblings and I doing that more than once and yet repeat offenders are common place. Admittedly I think this has something to do with the diet just as much as poor discipline by the parents (kids eat so many things that mess with them it's scary) but I can't think that the things the kids eat now are THAT much worse than the things I ate in the 90s or my younger siblings ate (and still eat) in the 00s.

              I also think that it depends on the child. Me and my siblings were a stubborn bunch and so we needed a firm hand. I've seen kids who are wise beyond their years though and understand, if explained to them, why they shouldn't do things and they stop doing things. Overall I think it's easier to start firm and scale back if the child doesn't seem to need it.

              Starting soft and trying to get firmer just seems, to me anyway, a bad mix and a way to really set the child and parent on a long collision course.

              My two cents from a 24 year old, single, non-parent guy. Your mileage may vary.
              Last edited by trekfan; 02-12-2013, 06:18 AM.
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              • Originally posted by whitebear View Post
                How many people, in hindsight are grateful for a few swats on the behind and the lessons learned? I'm not talking about beatings here and yes there is a huge difference. With all the people and all the different cultures/customs in this world there is no one right way. If we all lived in self contained little bubbles and could spend every minute with our children explaining everything in a way they could understand that would be great(not really)but in the real world both parents often have to work, kids go off to school, and there are influences all around that are beyond your control. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a simple spanking as long as there is also talk and understanding.
                I only remember once. I was older (over 5, younger than 9). I was messing around before I got into the shower. Hadn't even gotten undressed yet. My dad came upstairs and swatted me on the bum. I knew what he was coming to do and I tried to get away from him. I think I'd only been spanked one or two other times in my life. He was angry and even if it didn't hurt very much, it scared me and that wasn't okay. I grew up with a lot of fear for him for no good reason.

                I'm not certain I think that spanking is okay or not. I think it depends on the child. I think it depends on the situation. It should never come from a place of anger. I like to think that violence is always the last choice.
                Depression Lies

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                • Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
                  Thanks Itchy. My son wants me to look into where he can do this, so will ask around school tomorrow and see where other kids go.
                  Speaking of martial arts, Aikido is a passive martial art, very good for self defense. It also teaches self control and respect. Our family plans to start taking classes together this spring/summer. My 14yo is now a 2nd degree black belt in TaeKwonDo (he's been doing it since he was 5) and while it was great for him to have that outlet, I'm not really a big fan of TKD, it was just all we had available to us when he was younger.

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                  • I'm sorry I got to jump in on this one. I have a lot of background in martial arts and CQC stuff. TaeKwonDo and Aikido are not good self defense. I'm saying that with having trained in both. TKD made me a hell of a kicker but TKD is a sport. Being a competitive shooter shooting at a target with a firearm will give you an advantage over someone who seldom shoots but it does prepare you for a self defense encounter having to clear your house. Just like that takes specific training to build "muscle memory" so does hand to hand combat training. Aikido came from Aiki-jitsu which we studied and borrowed move from. We had a saying "nobody ever said Aikido was for self defense."

                    I'm not trying to get on your case. I just don't want you get caught up in the illusion that gets built up over styles and from movies.
                    Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

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                    • I am damaged, but not because of being spanked. It was because of emotional abuse from my mother. The spankings were few, and were in direct response to something I did. As I said in my first post, Dad never spanked when he was angry and only ever gave us three swats. It was a process and it worked. I think that I probably did not need the spankings so much as my siblings did as I was a sensitive child, but Dad was nothing if not fair. We knew what to expect from him.

                      I don't remember Mom ever touching us, but what she did to us emotionally damaged us far worse than any spanking we ever got. I have been working my whole adult life to get past it and have found it necessary to cut Mom out of my life in order to fully heal. Her toxic behavior lasted well beyond the time Dad stopped spanking us and into adulthood. Bad parents are bad parents whatever the tools they choose to use to abuse their children.

                      Spanking, just like any other parenting tool, is only as effective as the quality of parent who is using it. The line between good parenting and abuse is pretty thin and easier to step over than one would like to think or admit to oneself.

                      DH is a psychologist and according to him, the research is that there is no one perfect way of parenting, but there is the concept of good enough parenting. As someone else said on this thread, kids are resilient beasts and will survive most parenting to become mostly well-adjusted adults. My parents parented as they had learned to do by their parents and nothing they did was unacceptable by the standards of society at the time. Just like parents today use the parenting techniques that are socially acceptable right now. I would bet in 20 years time people are going to look back and say, "Can you believe they bought into that crap?" Just like now we are looking back and shaking our heads at the stuff the sold us in the 80s.

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                      • Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
                        Is it OK to hit your wife for losing an earing?
                        For forgetting to pay a bill?
                        Think if you hit her, she will remember next time? Maybe she will, but she would be too scared to do otherwise.

                        What about hitting the man who accidentally ran up the butt of your car, because he wasn't paying attention?

                        I just don't understand why people think its OK to hit a child, but not an adult.

                        Slippery slope - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                        ad astra per aspera

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                        • Originally posted by Primal Moose View Post
                          It does depend on the kid, not the parent. I got spanked. My parents found that putting me in time outs did not really affect me. My brother? Being put in time out was like the end of the world to him and was extremely effective.
                          Correct, but it was up to your parents to find out what action on their part caused a desired result in you, the child. It is UNBELIEVABLE to me how many of you posted back on this that it depends on the kid. Fuck it then, just breed and throw the kids in a field. They'll all find their way eventually, if parenting doesn't matter.

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                          • Originally posted by Scott F View Post
                            I'm sorry I got to jump in on this one. I have a lot of background in martial arts and CQC stuff. TaeKwonDo and Aikido are not good self defense. I'm saying that with having trained in both. TKD made me a hell of a kicker but TKD is a sport. Being a competitive shooter shooting at a target with a firearm will give you an advantage over someone who seldom shoots but it does prepare you for a self defense encounter having to clear your house. Just like that takes specific training to build "muscle memory" so does hand to hand combat training. Aikido came from Aiki-jitsu which we studied and borrowed move from. We had a saying "nobody ever said Aikido was for self defense."

                            I'm not trying to get on your case. I just don't want you get caught up in the illusion that gets built up over styles and from movies.
                            What do you recommend?
                            Starting Date: Dec 18, 2010
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                            • Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
                              because...(3rd time)- when you do this to your child specifically as mentioned in your thread, violence is still just an idea. Its a concept, a mystery word that mommy uses. When his lips swells up from a smack in the mouth though, he tastes violence and feels it. Then you can try words again, now that that word is no longer a concept, and is instead an experience label that makes his belly uncomfortable to dwell on.
                              Kids will learn about violence from other kids, typically at a very early age. That's no reason to teach them that their parents are to be obeyed out of fear (and yes, if you use physical pain as a reinforcement, fear is exactly what you are instilling--to varying degrees depending on the sensitivity of the child). You're teaching them that larger and more powerful people have authority because of their ability to impose violence on others.

                              This is entirely different from learning about violence, and the correct responses to it (which should be, in my opinion 1) avoidance followed by 2) swift and decisive defeat of the aggressor in case it's unavoidable and finally 3) survival by any means necessary if the aggressor can't be stopped. In no case should you EVER teach a child to aggress, which is what you are doing if you escalate to hitting them for a non-violent offense), in a progressive and relatively safe peer environment--progressive in that the child and his/her peers will naturally become more capable as they age, and relatively safe as in age-appropriate environment and adult supervision.

                              There is no shortage of violence and pain in this world, which an attentive parent can use instructively to illuminate the pitfalls of the world the child needs to learn to navigate. The parent doesn't need to be one more source of danger.

                              Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
                              and meat has everything to do with it- you can't teach your kid that violence is wrong and feed him animals that were murdered and skinned and chopped up and cooked.
                              This is a very stupid argument. You can easily teach a child that aggression toward people is wrong while eating meat and even slaughtering animals yourself. Eating animals is part of human physiology. We do it to fulfill our biological needs and, yes, because we enjoy meat. You can even use humane animal husbandry and slaughter as yet another way to show your children that the infliction of pain is not the goal of the slaughter and should be avoided as much as possible, that the animal's ability to feel pain and fear should be respected. This is the foundation of empathy, and it's not hard to understand. Unless you are emotionally damaged, which I suspect you might be from the way you seem to think about the subject.

                              Originally posted by canio6 View Post
                              I guess I do not consider myself particularly scary. And obviously it depends on the kid. If a kid will listen to what you have to say and perhaps not hit their brother on multiple occasions and then perhaps not go to school and hit/not hit kids there then that might just work. Other kids might need to be put in time out or grounded or get a smack on the butt occasionally. It depends on the kid.
                              First off, I'm not criticizing your overall parenting strategy or your specific tactics. But do you really think it's relevant whether you think of yourself as scary? You are many times the size of a child. I would be terrified if a person twice my height was chasing me around and trying to hit me. Hell, I would be terrified of the cuddliest teddy bear if it was huge and trying to do me harm. Think about it. Children and adults do not live in the same perceptual world.

                              Originally posted by itchy166 View Post
                              A have a little story about violence and bullying for you just to bring things back to perspective. My daughter was severely bullied up until the age of twelve. My wife and I had been to the school on many occasions, but to no avail. The school is too weak to lay blame on the aggressor, and the aggressors parents refused to believe that their son is bullying a girl. The school's solution to an aggressive male bully? Bring the bully and the victim together, and have them talk it out!!! So in essence, the school is telling both parties involved that they are both to blame, and that my daughter is somehow responsible or at least complicit in her own bullying!!!

                              Anyway, to make the a long story short, I eventually told the school that if they continue to allow this to happen, then I would teach my daughter how to punch correctly. They were appalled to say the least. I reminded them that the criminal code allows for self-defense, (which they argued, lol) and that if they weren't going to help my daughter then she would help herself.

                              They didn't, and she did. After punching a few noses, the bullying stopped but she still suffers from the abuse that she experienced.

                              In a perfect world there would be no need for violence, but this world is far from perfect...
                              In response to this I have to reiterate that teaching situation-appropriate responses to aggression by others, through progressive training in a supervised environment (which is what martial arts training accomplishes) and using violence as discipline are worlds apart. One teaches confidence and makes the child more capable and, hopefully, more responsible in his use of violence. The other teaches fear of pain (or desensitization to it; both are disordered in my opinion) from larger, more powerful authority figures. They're not the same thing at all.
                              Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

                              My Primal Journal

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                              • Originally posted by kenn View Post
                                What do you recommend?
                                I don't think I have as much experience as Scott F, but disciplines like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, mixed martial arts and Krav Maga have excellent reputations as teaching effective combat skills. Personally I happen to favor good old karate (if you can find a good school; that's a crapshoot though, and non-martial artists won't necessarily know what they're looking at) as a good introduction to the inexperienced to teach the body awareness, coordination and basic striking skills as well as mental discipline before moving on to a more realistic combat art.
                                Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

                                My Primal Journal

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