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  • Absolutely, among them an absolute inability to empathize with any victims of violence anywhere ever. It will be a formula in the mind with the same force as an idea about roman engineering.
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

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    • But the kids will probably make that conclusion on their own when they are violently able enough and pubescent and just go to violent music shows to get hit in the face and kicked and shit.
      "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

      Jack london, "Before Adam"

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      • Also violence is everywhere- maybe foreign systems are different but I doubt it since you have british! roots, but in america, violence seizes your money so that men with violent power can say what industry gets what favors. So, violence determines the water we drink, our power companies and municipal cliques and food supply and medicine. Then it becomes beer and sports in controlled environments lol
        "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

        Jack london, "Before Adam"

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        • No you are wrong.
          I'm out.

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          • Originally posted by Louisa655
            I had very smart parents -- very patient parents --- very educated parents. I've never been struck - ever. Don't mistaken me for some emotionally traumatized child. My childhood was happy and I have raised 4, well-adjusted children --- and I hope they will raise my well-adjusted grandchildren. Nice try, though.
            I'm just trying to understand why you are conflating two very different acts in such emotional terms. I guess ignorance is as valid a reason as bad experience.

            My parents were probably quite dumb and uneducated in comparison. They maybe did OK on the patience front...hell, they've been married about 50 years so at least one of them must be patient. Dumb as posts though. They were attending a university (both on full academic scholarships) when they met, but that was in the 1960s and things were different back then. I have 3rd party (US gov't even) evidence that one of my parents had an IQ of only >160 and I doubt the average of their IQs was much above 150 even. They played the hand they were dealt and that's all anyone can do.

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            • Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
              For those who do smack, where do you draw the line? Do you ever smack when you are calm, and rational? Or only angry.
              Bizarre question. Why are you getting angry at kids? Getting angry at children is insane IMO. When they are little it's like getting angry at a dog or something, and when they are older it's still rather pointless.

              I think I've seen one of my parents actually angry maybe once in my life, and it wasn't at me. They have disagreed with plenty of things/people, but that's not anger. The very few times they struck me (and since I was stubborn, not particularly bothered by pain, and pretty much saw myself as being on the same side as my parents against the world, vs fighting my parents, that wasn't often) you can be 100% sure that it was a calm rational choice on their part.

              I have never struck anyone in anger. Not as a child, and not as an adult I have struck in defense, I have struck to accomplish a goal, but never in anger. I've been in maybe 10 fights, all but one before I was 10, all with people at least 3 years older (e.g. I lit into a 16 year old when I was 9), and all following a pattern where they were bullying me or a friend and I was trying to make their life so miserable they would never want to mess with me or my friend again. Didn't always work out in my favor, but in hindsight it's funny to think about.

              When is it too much. Smack on the bum didn't work, so a slap on the face? Or pushing them into the wall? Still not listening? How about a punch in the face and then thrown into the wall.
              That's more insanity. You aren't fighting, you are punishing. X happens, Y is the result. It has to be fair and just.

              You probably had very intelligent, very patient, very well educated parents, but that's not what most people experience and it is not what most people are talking about with physical punishment. You don't fight with your kids, you train them. If it gets to fighting you are doing it wrong...and by 'it' I mean parenting in general.
              Last edited by Him; 02-11-2013, 09:39 PM.

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              • Originally posted by Him View Post
                Bizarre question. Why are you getting angry at kids? Getting angry at children is insane IMO. When they are little it's like getting angry at a dog or something, and when they are older it's still rather pointless.

                I think I've seen one of my parents actually angry maybe once in my life, and it wasn't at me. They have disagreed with plenty of things/people, but that's not anger. The very few times they struck me (and since I was stubborn, not particularly bothered by pain, and pretty much saw myself as being on the same side as my parents against the world, vs fighting my parents, that wasn't often) you can be 100% sure that it was a calm rational choice on their part.

                I have never struck anyone in anger. Not as a child, and not as an adult to a child. I have struck in defense, I have struck to accomplish a goal, but never in anger.



                That's more insanity. You aren't fighting, you are punishing. X happens, Y is the result. It has to be fair and just.

                You probably had very intelligent, very patient, very well educated parents, but that's not what most people experience and it is not what most people are talking about with physical punishment. You don't fight with your kids, you train them. If it gets to fighting you are doing it wrong...and by 'it' I mean parenting in general.
                I had crap parents actually, which you would see if you read my other posts in this thread.
                I rarely get angry at my kids but if I have it's the only time I e thought of smacking.
                People get angry at their kids plenty

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                • And train them? For real? They aren't dogs.

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                  • ie teaching them what is and isn't acceptable behavior
                    beautiful
                    yeah you are

                    Baby if you time travel back far enough you can avoid that work because the dust won't be there. You're too pretty to be working that hard.
                    lol

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                    • Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
                      I had crap parents actually, which you would see if you read my other posts in this thread.
                      I rarely get angry at my kids but if I have it's the only time I e thought of smacking.
                      People get angry at their kids plenty
                      I just can't win.

                      I know some people get angry at their kids. Some people cut themselves with razor blades too. It just doesn't make sense to me. Peeved at yourself for not knowing how to handle a situation? Sure. Been there. Angry at kids? Makes as much sense to be angry at your car for running out of gas.

                      I think my mother's sister's husband was one of those people who got angry at his kids. I doubt he ever hit them, but I remember when I was maybe 18 watching his kids ... They would be doing something...say playing music, and doing fairly well when I was in the room. Then he walked in the room they would start doing it wrong. He would try to tell them what to do, and they would do it even more wrong. Finally he would get so angry that he left, and they would start laughing and go back to doing it right. They deliberately did stuff worse when he was around to wind him up, and he fell for it constantly. That seems like a dumb sort of familu dynamic to court, and it's probably the best case result you can expect from getting angry at kids. Not my sort of thing.
                      Last edited by Him; 02-11-2013, 10:03 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
                        And train them? For real? They aren't dogs.
                        No, they aren't dogs. Then again, neither are musicians, or ballet dancers, or painters, or pilots, or...all the people who need extensive training to excel.

                        Yes, train them. Kids are adults in training. It is your job as a parent to train them to be effective adults.

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                        • Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
                          And train them? For real? They aren't dogs.
                          I have to disagree on this one. (After violently biting my tongue so far.).

                          The ONLY job of a parent is to train your children to be able to look after themselves as adults. Not enough people are doing a very good job with this either as evidenced by the number of 20 and 30 somethings living in their parents basements...

                          Really does the method really matter that much if the result is a well-adjusted adult who can (and does) look after herself? In a word, no.

                          A have a little story about violence and bullying for you just to bring things back to perspective. My daughter was severely bullied up until the age of twelve. My wife and I had been to the school on many occasions, but to no avail. The school is too weak to lay blame on the aggressor, and the aggressors parents refused to believe that their son is bullying a girl. The school's solution to an aggressive male bully? Bring the bully and the victim together, and have them talk it out!!! So in essence, the school is telling both parties involved that they are both to blame, and that my daughter is somehow responsible or at least complicit in her own bullying!!!

                          Anyway, to make the a long story short, I eventually told the school that if they continue to allow this to happen, then I would teach my daughter how to punch correctly. They were appalled to say the least. I reminded them that the criminal code allows for self-defense, (which they argued, lol) and that if they weren't going to help my daughter then she would help herself.

                          They didn't, and she did. After punching a few noses, the bullying stopped but she still suffers from the abuse that she experienced.

                          In a perfect world there would be no need for violence, but this world is far from perfect...
                          "It's a great life, if you don't weaken.". John Buchan

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                          • Ok fine.
                            I guess training is another way to put it.

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                            • Itchy if I came to that situation with my children I may re think things.
                              I am sorry your daughter went through that.

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                              • Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
                                Also violence is everywhere- maybe foreign systems are different but I doubt it since you have british! roots, but in america, violence seizes your money so that men with violent power can say what industry gets what favors. So, violence determines the water we drink, our power companies and municipal cliques and food supply and medicine. Then it becomes beer and sports in controlled environments lol
                                Taxation is the most insidious form of violence in our culture, and we (most of us) blindly accept it.
                                "It's a great life, if you don't weaken.". John Buchan

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