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Any gentle/attached parents around? Need advice?

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  • #91
    I am not trying to offend you- I made it clear that I am suspicious of Australian law and do not believe that it protects parents who say, "well my son doesn't want to come to school so that's that."
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

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    • #92
      I'm saying, the governments of the world are filled with people with scribbles on paper that affirm their belief that they own your children, and therefore, can come and make him go to school or punish you for not giving him over to them.
      "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

      Jack london, "Before Adam"

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      • #93
        HIya. I know we are about 100 pages down the track now, but I have some information that might help you. It's from the steiner perspective. Send me a PM and I'll send you the "notes" on it. Also, we can talk specifics in private.

        Other than that, I'll have you cut yourself some slack.

        My son (and his bestie, a little girl) -- both AP/unconditional parented -- are going through this "high frustration/hitting" phase, and also really expressing anger extremely. And it happens at the drop of a hat. She also may be high-high funcitoning aspie, so. . .yeah.

        lets talk screen time -- 30 minutes a day is actually good for most families! So, consider yourself doing a good job there. I'll just make the suggestion that you transition him to other programming.

        Do you need this 30 minutes to yourself? If not, then the transition is easier if you watch with him. And, start by alternating. Today, Simpsons, tomorrow -- other programming.

        We prioritize nature and reality programming. Our reality programing are cooking shows, gardening shows, agricultural shows (like country calendar), building shows (like Grand Designs, The Block, Yankee Workshop, Renovation Man, etc), making shows such as Project Runway, How It's Made, etc. Also ones that focus on science/engineering/building things or improving things that already exist.

        I find that this programming is easier for him to process.

        Sometimes, he does get cartoons. These include Mouk (about traveling, very simple, sweet story lines), Bob the Builder, Frog and Friends (emotional describing and problem solving through community -- really *nice* cartoons), and Postman Pat.

        We strive to watch all shows with him, and when we can't, we put him on either Starfall.com (reading/math gams) or Lego.com on their "plan/project maker." This second one is video game like where you pick legos and then "build" something with it. On that "channel" they also have videos of lego designers -- how these people create, for example, The Hobbit lego sets to look like Hobbiton and work properly, etc. This, again, informs him of the underlying *creative* process of being a Lego *creator* and encourages him to be an independent creator of lego designs rather than simply relying on other designers and putting the puzzle together.

        The lego.com design game has helped DS with his engineering with his lego. Usually, you print out the plans, but he just makes them -- and experimenting with the computer decreases his frustration. He can see what works, understands what he needs, then build it. And, he'll often then move to his lego and tinker with it in a more fun/relaxing relaxing way when he's working on a complex design (ie, created a spider where the back two legs could "move" to 'draw out" the web which he created with ribbon and a lego-spindle).

        So, when we need time. . . like if i'm teaching and DH is running an errand or something . . . we'll do the lego/starfall thing for him for that time. We also have to give him 'fair warning" of the ending time. This leads to less frustration.

        The other thing that we noted is that DS needed more "us time" or family time. Even doing "menial" tasks together is helpful. he's in charge of chopping the salad for dinner and he also helps me with the juicing (stands on a stool and puts the veg into the juicer and I push it down with the thingy). So, by helping with these "menial" tasks, he's participating.

        And, there are other things we are doing, too, that seem to help. SO. We can PM about a few things if you'd like.

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        • #94
          Homeschooling would happen if it go to that. He doesn't HAVE to go to school you know.0
          If he really feared something enough to not want to go it would be a school issue and I would work through it with him and them. But I told you he loves school so not likely to need to go through this.

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          • #95
            Ooh I love you zoebird
            Will pm you later after school drop off.
            Great advice thank you!

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            • #96
              I def try to do more one on one time with him at night. Lots of cuddles.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by fuzzylogic View Post
                Your way is obviously NOT working. However, you only want to hear from people who are doing it your way. Cue the eat more wheat and high-fiber, low fat CW of the parenting world.

                Some kid will smack the crap out of your kid, being bigger and faster, and your child will learn to quit hitting.
                I find this ridiculous, though the last statement has value.

                When people come to this primal forum, they know that they are going to get advice within the "family" of primal paleo. So, they say "this isn't working" or "I tried this, am I doing it right?" and we then answer *from this perspective* and do not say "oh well, go eat wheat."

                Same thing with AP/GD. It's a perspective of parenting that auto-excludes certain discipline and parenting practices under both a scientific and philosophical basis. But, like the paleo spectrum, it is also a spectrum of practices that can be adopted by a family. And, just because you have adopted a practice *does not* mean that you are doing it properly (as I well know from my own parenting).

                So asking for advice from people *who practice within a specific idea* does not mean that it's somehow this is going to the "CW" of parenting.

                In terms of the last statement, I have to say that one thing that did help DS was the sudden recognition that we were bigger/stronger than he was. It was non-punative, non-reactive, and non-violent. He was feeling frustrated (which we first acknowledge with words -- "I hear/see that you are angry and frustrated about X. Those are strong emotions. I see that you want to lash out at me."

                Then, as soon as the attempt is made, we use an aikido-type movement to demonstrate the capacity for physical dominance. it doesn't hurt, but it redirects the energy very quickly. We "stumbled upon" this technique. It effectively means catching the throw of the hit and drawing him into a big hug with the throwing-arm held gently along the back/side.

                It is very clear who is physically in charge in that moment. It also works with adults, btw -- I've done it a fair few times in high school/university.

                And, the next step is *low tones and calmness*. The thing about aikido is that you can't do it "hepped up." You have to be *CALM* it is a discipline. So the movement cannot come from anger (taht's why DH can often fail at it and DS only continues to strike at him -- they escalate each other).

                So, what is our process.

                DS gets upset and becomes angry. He makes the face and physical movements (stomping feet, rigid body, etc). I acknowledge it -- calm, low tones. "I see that you are frustrated/upset. I understand that you want X and cannot have it. How can we work out this anger?" Sometimes, just moving helps. We do things like "exploding volcano jumps" (play/yoga based).

                When that doesn't work, and DS goes to swing at me (or kick), I ignore the first go, and I say "That's enough. I understand that you are frustrated/angry. But hitting is not an appropriate expression of anger. Yelling, stomping, jumping, and using words are fine. Anger is fine. Hitting is only for self defense, as with a Jedi." And then I redirect to the above.

                If this still fails to work, and DS takes a swing, then I calmly do the aikido move. The first time I did this, he was quite surprised by it. I took a deep breath and said "I know that emotions like anger and frustration can be overwhelming, but hitting in anger is not appropriate. We can stay like this until you calm down, or find another appropriate way to work through your anger. Your choice."

                Sometimes, you know, anger is difficult. Sometimes, you need closeness, connectedness, and grounding. Other times, you need to stomp and express and be physical about it. Either one is fine -- so long as it is non-violent. There's nothing wrong with anger and frustration and disappointment -- I feel that we need to make this clear from the outset. And, it's ok to express your anger properly, too. So, we have to instruct in that.

                What is interesting is that I "happened upon" this move. DS acknowledged tht the experience "surprised" him. He said to his father "Mom can be fearsome. She can hurt me, but she doesn't hurt me -- even when she gets angry." And that gave him a sense of pause.

                And, he hasn't hit me since (not that he did often).

                But, I will also point out that it's the *age*. Every child at this age that I know of -- whether AP or not -- are going through this witht heir parents. It's boundary testing as well. DS does NOT hit anyone else but *us* because he needs to test these kinds of boundaries in the safest place possible.

                Now, he sees some boundaries -- we *can* hurt him, we choose not to, even when angry.

                DH is working on the "remain calm" part. When he feels stressed, he's less likely to be calm, and that escalates the situation.

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                • #98
                  Also, is he going to a "normal" school?

                  I find this to be a difficult transition for AP/GD kids. You see, at home, he lives in a world of non-punitive models of discipline. But then he goes to school and it's punitive models left, right, and center. It's just the culture of "regular" schooling (and also the culture of "regular" parenting).

                  You might consider -- if possible -- moving to montessori or steiner education, as these practice non-punitive discipline models. There might also be other "alternative" schools that run on these ideals.

                  We have visited regular schools several times, and while they use a lot of non-punative practices, there is still an undercurrent of punitive discipline in the environment. DS picked up on it and didn't understand how/why things were working certain ways in those kindies that we have visited vs HIS steiner kindy.

                  So, as school is "new" this may be creating confusion/frustration that he cannot put voice to.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by zoebird View Post
                    Then, as soon as the attempt is made, we use an aikido-type movement to demonstrate the capacity for physical dominance. it doesn't hurt, but it redirects the energy very quickly. We "stumbled upon" this technique. It effectively means catching the throw of the hit and drawing him into a big hug with the throwing-arm held gently along the back/side.
                    I did something very similar when babysitting decades ago. Specifically I was tasked with watching a much younger distant relative (he lived 1600+ KM from me) who had a totally different idea from me of what constituted appropriate behavior. I had seen him hitting his no-physical-punishment frequently-hysterical mother, and sure enough he tried the same thing with me...until suddenly he realized he was dealing with a strong 182cm/100kg male who had no trouble picking him up with one hand. I didn't hurt him, in fact I made him laugh in the process, but you could actually see the light going on for him. His behavior flipped like a switch and suddenly he was little mr. behaves...with me. He still hit his mom when she showed up.

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                    • Him,

                      Yes, DS is more likely to "behave" with me because of calm, clear boundaries. DH tends to be less so -- partly due to his personality type and partly due how he relates in general (old patterns, family stuff, etc). So, this stuff -- and DS hitting -- is a lot harder on him than it is on me. DH often laments "but he doesn't listen/behave for me." And part of it is because DH can be wildly inconsistent AND gets frustrated in the process.

                      It's the inconsistency that can cause a lot of problems. And, DS has a new-found thing with this hitting. It gets a lot of reaction. Less reaction means less problem, too. So, always a good idea to remain calm.

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                      • I'm curious how kids reared in completely non-punitive environments will respond when they are in their teens and navigating scenarios their parents can't control, like getting a job, dating, moving to secondary education, trying out for sports or maybe the arts. Situations like that certainly aren't non-punitive and they often aren't even fair. Things and people that hurt you are based on anything but what they might think as logical reasoning. How do you teach your kids to respond to 'real world' scenarios?

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                        • Originally posted by Zanna View Post
                          I'm curious how kids reared in completely non-punitive environments will respond when they are in their teens and navigating scenarios their parents can't control, like getting a job, dating, moving to secondary education, trying out for sports or maybe the arts. Situations like that certainly aren't non-punitive and they often aren't even fair. Things and people that hurt you are based on anything but what they might think as logical reasoning. How do you teach your kids to respond to 'real world' scenarios?
                          I was wondering about that, too. As much as I don't like how most schooling is set up, it DOES teach one that the world is not fair- and that's a valuable lesson.
                          http://cattaillady.com/ My blog exploring the beginning stages of learning how to homestead. With the occasional rant.

                          Originally Posted by TheFastCat: Less is more more or less

                          And now I have an Etsy store: CattailsandCalendula

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                          • Originally posted by Zanna View Post
                            I'm curious how kids reared in completely non-punitive environments will respond when they are in their teens and navigating scenarios their parents can't control, like getting a job, dating, moving to secondary education, trying out for sports or maybe the arts. Situations like that certainly aren't non-punitive and they often aren't even fair. Things and people that hurt you are based on anything but what they might think as logical reasoning. How do you teach your kids to respond to 'real world' scenarios?
                            Learning that life isn't fair and working our how we are going to respond to it is one of the key things that we learn growing up, whether raised in a 'non-punitive environment' or not.

                            Life isn't fair. So what?
                            Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                            Griff's cholesterol primer
                            5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                            Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                            TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                            bloodorchid is always right

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                            • Maybe "life isn't fair" wasn't quite the right wording. Life- read, 90% of the world as it is now- is punitive.
                              http://cattaillady.com/ My blog exploring the beginning stages of learning how to homestead. With the occasional rant.

                              Originally Posted by TheFastCat: Less is more more or less

                              And now I have an Etsy store: CattailsandCalendula

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by drssgchic View Post
                                I was wondering about that, too. As much as I don't like how most schooling is set up, it DOES teach one that the world is not fair- and that's a valuable lesson.
                                Many children raised in the most CW ways, including spanking, don't handle the whole "life ain't fair" bit very well at all... mostly because of inconsistent and permissive parenting.

                                Just because parenting is not CW that does not mean that a child will not be able to understand how the world works.
                                “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                                ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                                And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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