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  • #61
    Originally posted by Rojo View Post
    Why don't you save me some time and let me know the height of your ad hominem bar? Seems like if someone puts two dimes together, like Michael Moore, their attacked as rich hypocrits. If they're poor they're sour grapes.
    For the record: I have never said anything about Michael Moore. Not here, not elsewhere. I've never met the man, have no particular interest in his work, and don't know much about him.

    As for my bar... when you bite the hand that feeds you, I'm going to point that out. It speaks directly to your credibility. Engels took advantage of family connections and turned around and pissed on what his family connections gave him. It's no different than a person on welfare claiming that welfare should be abolished. You are free to construe that as an ad hom, as you are free to be wrong about anything else.

    Originally posted by Rojo View Post
    A lot folks smarter than me have debated how exactly to define Capitalism. I can envision a version that doesn't include compound interest or private land ownership.
    Sure, there can be forms of Capitalism like that. When you think about it, that's the stereotype of the free trader... the mythical trade ship that bounces from port to port buying and selling, taking advantage of relative value differentials. However, that probably isn't a very good form of Capitalism. It leads to entities like the Dutch East-India Company, which started out with capital from trade (therefore didn't need compound interest) and didn't really honor any land ownership claims. It logically follows from what you want, but historically it wasn't a particularly pleasant organization.


    I don't know the numbers but the amount of actual protestors in a movement is always going to be small. But Occupy spread spontaneously without an organization to over 600 communities in the US, thousands worldwide.
    Well now that's an interesting thing. If you start with the idea that there are 600,000+ homeless people already living wherever they can and perfectly happy to hold up a sign if it'll net them some cash, and you add the fact that that since Obama was elected the workforce has stayed more or less static (around 30,000 net jobs gained under Obama IIRC) while the population has gone up by around 8,000,000....well, that's a pretty huge pool of people who don't got nuthin better to do than play Occupy. The fact that they were widespread is a product of our widespread communications systems (e.g. the internet) ... the fact that out of potentially millions of people who could join the protests without particular cost, not even 50,000 actually joined, says that the occupy position was not particularly popular.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Him View Post
      As for my bar... when you bite the hand that feeds you, I'm going to point that out. It speaks directly to your credibility. Engels took advantage of family connections and turned around and pissed on what his family connections gave him.
      Marx was broke, Engels was not. You're basically saying that no life circumstance is acceptable if you criticize capitalism.

      When you think about it, that's the stereotype of the free trader... the mythical trade ship that bounces from port to port buying and selling, taking advantage of relative value differentials. However, that probably isn't a very good form of Capitalism.
      Nothing mythical about it. Arabs dominated this kind of trade for a long time. But Islam prohibited usury (so did Christianity until the money got too big), so the money backers would be full partners -- they got a chunk of the upside and took the downside loss. Contrast this with banks who get paid back even if you loose your shirt (or, after TARP, even if they loose their shirt).

      Well now that's an interesting thing. If you start with the idea that there are 600,000+ homeless people already living wherever they can and perfectly happy to hold up a sign if it'll net them some cash, and you add the fact that that since Obama was elected the workforce has stayed more or less static (around 30,000 net jobs gained under Obama IIRC) while the population has gone up by around 8,000,000....well, that's a pretty huge pool of people who don't got nuthin better to do than play Occupy. The fact that they were widespread is a product of our widespread communications systems (e.g. the internet) ... the fact that out of potentially millions of people who could join the protests without particular cost, not even 50,000 actually joined, says that the occupy position was not particularly popular.
      Hard to keep track of the numbers you're throwing around, I won't try. Suffice it to say it was a spontaneous, widespread uprising that frightened the establishment enough to crush it.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Rojo View Post
        Marx was broke, Engels was not. You're basically saying that no life circumstance is acceptable if you criticize capitalism.
        Balderdash!

        In the first instance I was refuting your claim that Karl was an expert on Capitalism. Experts can harness their knowledge. They can combine circumstances and knowledge to create and exploit opportunity. Karl tried and failed. Had he tried and succeeded, and then said, "but this is wrong and I'm stopping," you could argue (as you tried to do) that Karl was a subject matter expert and conscientious objector. That was not the case. The life circumstance was fine but it directly contradicts your assertion.

        In the second instance you implied that Engels was a capitalist. That is factually incorrect. Engels was a nepotist. He was the son of a capitalist and, through family connections - not expertise - was put in a sinecure position which he did not enjoy. Had he built the business himself instead of being handed the reigns, and then said, "but this is wrong so I'm stopping," you could argue (as you tried to do) that Engels was a subject matter expert and conscientious objector. That was not the case. The life circumstance was fine but it directly contradicts your assertion.

        Neither man demonstrated any real knowledge of capitalism. One tried and failed, one had the world handed to him, neither ever built a thing of his own beyond theory that failed real world testing (and in the process got a lot of people killed). That in no way implies that a person can't criticize capitalism unless they are capitalists, or that their life circumstances were wrong in some way, it says you were wrong when you called them experts on the subject.

        Nothing mythical about it. Arabs dominated this kind of trade for a long time. But Islam prohibited usury (so did Christianity until the money got too big), so the money backers would be full partners -- they got a chunk of the upside and took the downside loss. Contrast this with banks who get paid back even if you loose your shirt (or, after TARP, even if they loose their shirt).
        Perhaps 'fabled' would be a better word. Storied. As in, doesn't exist now, may never have exist in the sense that we assume/imagine.


        Hard to keep track of the numbers you're throwing around, I won't try. Suffice it to say it was a spontaneous, widespread uprising that frightened the establishment enough to crush it.
        The numbers should make it easier. They give real scale to things which could otherwise be lost in what we little humans think of as a crowd.

        You can't crush the truth.

        Comment


        • #64
          Yes..We should all feel compassion. As someone pointed out earlier the extreme right wing Christians have hijacked the discussion. I have a hard time believing Jesus would make someone suffer because they didn't have health insurance. And as His follower I resent how He is represented in society now. I have no desire to rule over anybody. And yes the health care industry, oil and religion are all corrupt. The whole frickin' mess makes me furious.

          Originally posted by whitebear View Post
          BS! There are still lots of people in this world that feel compassion. Health care should be free. Are we not all brothers and sisters? The health care industry is right up there with oil and religion when it comes to corruption.
          You know all those things you wanted to do: You should go do them.

          Age 48
          height 5'3
          SW 215 lbs
          CW 180 lbs (whole foods/primal eating)
          LW 172 lbs
          GW 125ish lbs

          Comment


          • #65
            You need Bach flower essences and some carbs. Relax- you will only get carted away (probably) if you say the wrong thing on Facebook. You could delete, but you know how that works....

            I spent part of last summer boning up on all the scary NWO stuff. I read everything from Lysander Spooner to Hollywood as a devil cult. My conclusion was that I would need to leave the U.S., something I don't want to do. So I stopped reading it.

            As for capitalism, blame the Protestants.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by valmason01 View Post
              Yes..We should all feel compassion. As someone pointed out earlier the extreme right wing Christians have hijacked the discussion. I have a hard time believing Jesus would make someone suffer because they didn't have health insurance.
              Wouldn't he just touch them, and heal them and not ask for an insurance card?

              Comment


              • #67
                I'm currently writing a song about this. It's more focused on peace to nature than hate to the government. I uploaded the first verse, check it out:
                https://soundcloud.com/atonomousmusic/unnaturalized

                Lyrics:

                Unnaturalized, pawn some respect,
                withdraw from the net,
                wake from the flaws in the bed,
                move to Swiss with my mom and my cat
                I need a place where I can always forget.
                No street lights but stars instead
                where the love is in and the grades are out,
                where I can drink milk straight from the cow.
                Where the greed's gone, no grief thrown, and I can see the sea flowin'
                Maybe dive in it,
                and that's all I need to get high for a minute.
                I need a place where a smile isn't sinnin'.
                A place where my only guide is the river.
                Insomnia but the night is infinite,
                so it's alright, in the daylight we go chillin,
                I need a heartbeat that I finally fit in,
                yes I wanna find that rythm
                well then

                Comment


                • #68
                  I think the healthcare system is fucked up in terms of trying to extend lives, but it is what the consumer wants. I'm like WTF? when I see how my dad lives. I feel so terribly for him. I would not put an animal through that. But yet, we ask for it. We are OK to pay for it. I think it is well meaning- "extending lives" but.... $1200 a pop antibiotics to keep someone too weak to eat from getting overwhelmed by infection is really off kilter. My friends father had a lung transplant in his mid 70's and died without ever regaining consciousness- over a million dollars to kill him.

                  And it hurts family members to keep loved ones propped up. I see my mom adding up the dollars. Getting stressed and losing her own health in the quest to "extend the life" of someone who doesn't have anything left. Heartbreaking, because we don't want to say "let him go". She sees her quality of life declining and knows his death would be a relief, but can't bring herself to act on it...because there is always another option to keep the existence going.

                  So help me, if anyone ever sticks a tube in me, I will strangle them with my last strength.

                  http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                  Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Thank you Unamused Mouse. I am new to Paleo and while not having panic attacks definitley feeling the "conspiracy"

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                      I think the healthcare system is fucked up in terms of trying to extend lives, but it is what the consumer wants. I'm like WTF? when I see how my dad lives. I feel so terribly for him. I would not put an animal through that. But yet, we ask for it. We are OK to pay for it. I think it is well meaning- "extending lives" but.... $1200 a pop antibiotics to keep someone too weak to eat from getting overwhelmed by infection is really off kilter. My friends father had a lung transplant in his mid 70's and died without ever regaining consciousness- over a million dollars to kill him.

                      And it hurts family members to keep loved ones propped up. I see my mom adding up the dollars. Getting stressed and losing her own health in the quest to "extend the life" of someone who doesn't have anything left. Heartbreaking, because we don't want to say "let him go". She sees her quality of life declining and knows his death would be a relief, but can't bring herself to act on it...because there is always another option to keep the existence going.

                      So help me, if anyone ever sticks a tube in me, I will strangle them with my last strength.
                      We only think it's what we want because we are programmed to do so. Most people are unaware of or refuse to acknowledge alternatives.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by JoanieL View Post
                        I'm still paranoid and pissed at the Fed.
                        On that note, I went looking for nutritional information on my favorite standard beer and ran into this thread which I found relevant to your comment:
                        Carbohydrates | Dogfish Head Craft Brewed Ales

                        Similar question came into our QC Manager last week (someone wondered why we don't have nutritional labeling on our beers). While the reply isn't exact to your question, here is the reply of our QC Manager Lenore (cause I think she summed it all up so well!)...

                        Being an alcoholic beverage, we are governed by a different government arm than the FDA. Nutritional labeling requirements demand that we list content for things that beer does not contain (since they are written for food, not beer). We used to have caloric info on our website, but the government said that we had to remove it. By law, we can’t only show the data that is pertinent to beer, we have to show all that they specify. So we’d have to analyze our beer for things that it doesn’t contain.

                        Also, since many of our beers are small batches or only made once or occasionally, we wouldn’t have the info in time to get label approval and get it out the door before it is old. Perhaps if they change the rules so that they are make more sense with regards to craft beer, we’ll be able to do as you request.

                        Craft beer is just a little fish in the big fish bowl. The rules are made more for the big fish.
                        and
                        So basically, we at least had SOME nutritional information before (calories in each beer), but now thanks to meddling government bureaucrats, we now have ZERO nutritional information. Way to go, Big Brother!

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by whitebear View Post
                          We only think it's what we want because we are programmed to do so. Most people are unaware of or refuse to acknowledge alternatives.
                          You don't see that as an indictment of the whole idea? It should be throwing up a major flag saying, "Whoa there! Humans are programmed to work a different way so change your approach or you're doomed!"

                          Humans are animals. Like other animals, we have an innate sense of fairness that works on very primitive terms. If we see ourselves doing the same work as another, but getting less reward, that's unfair. It's like the experiments done with chimps... push a button get some food. If chimp A gets 1oz of food per button press, and chimp B gets 2oz of food for the same button press, when chimp A realizes the difference you are faced with one ticked off chimp. They will even stop pressing the button altogether even though it would be arguably better to get something than nothing. They are programmed, to use your terminology, and that programming is part of our evolutionary history.

                          If everyone pays into health insurance, but one guy gets nothing while another guy gets a $100,000 pay-out in the form of a surgery, that absolutely hits humans in the monkey back-brain. It is unfair at an evolutionary level. It's exactly the same as when chimp A realizes that chimp B gets twice as much per button press.

                          You hear that if you talk to people. I've talked to people after receiving major medical care. How do most describe it? By how much it hurt? By the recovery time? By how much better life is afterward? No. The most consistent description is in terms of how much it cost insurance. It was a $40,000 procedure, a $125,000 procedure. Why? Because after paying thousands of dollars into health insurance, that's the payout...and it was a jackpot! It's proof that you weren't the sucker that is getting only an ounce of food when someone else is getting two.

                          People don't think that way... they are driven to be that way by a billion years of evolution. Fairness means getting back what you put in, and the more you pay in (health insurance premiums, taxes, et cetera) the more you are driven to get out if you want to feel like the system is fair.

                          I think it's another variation on the Tragedy of the Commons..... by creating universal health care (whether through regulation of business or direct government provision) you create a Commons, and the natural response to a Commons is that everyone wants to extract all they can from it because someone else benefiting when you don't is unfair in that back-brain evolutionary sense. You are then forced to exert more and more control to try and keep people from abusing the Commons, which ties us back to Pilot-induced Oscillations and totalitarian governments and a whole host of other problem. The reality is that human nature rarely allows us to take the most direct approach to solving problems, and creating a health-care Commons is a very direct approach to paying for health care.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Him View Post
                            Experts can harness their knowledge. They can combine circumstances and knowledge to create and exploit opportunity.
                            Huh? So if I'm an expert on the Civil War, how would that work exactly.

                            In the second instance you implied that Engels was a capitalist. That is factually incorrect. Engels was a nepotist.
                            No, it's not "factually incorrect". A capitalist is someone who makes money from money. It doesn't matter how they got it.

                            I can't really argue with you using your definitions.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              It's proof that you weren't the sucker that is getting only an ounce of food when someone else is getting two.

                              People don't think that way... they are driven to be that way by a billion years of evolution. Fairness means getting back what you put in, and the more you pay in (health insurance premiums, taxes, et cetera) the more you are driven to get out if you want to feel like the system is fair.
                              That wasn't really my point. I think we spend a shit load of money on people who would rather die. I don't see my dad and say "waste of money" or "he'd getting his share". I see my dad and think what we are doing to him is rather inhumane. We are quite OK with the idea of euthanizing animals to prevent/cut suffering. We don't do that for people, instead we do the opposite and extend suffering. It's like spending money to cause human suffering. I just remember the last time I saw him, he wanted pain meds. Give the man all the pain meds he wants. "No, they can kill him". But they keep pumping him full of antibiotics that do the same thing, only more slowly, painfully and expensively.

                              I guess the corporation does win in this case. Is that their intention? To profit from misery? I'd like to think that they view what they do as positive (extending life). I hope they aren't gleefully in a boardroom making a chart of extending a bedridden patients life by X to sell Y more drugs.

                              http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                              Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                                That wasn't really my point. I think we spend a shit load of money on people who would rather die.
                                And here comes Sarah Palin with her "Death Panels". It's tricky. Whether by corporation or government, it shouldn't be a money decision. I think most of us can agree. We have all the technology in the world to keeep someone clinically alive but lack the cultural equipment to say "enough". Look what Michael Schiavo went through.

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