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  • Originally posted by Rojo View Post
    Occupy is "damn-the-man". Paulista's are radical-chic Republicans.
    Occupy wants to make the government that brought us this mess even stronger. Many Paulista's don't believe in government at all. Ron Paul himself is probably a closet individual anarchist if you ask me.
    My Recipes are at: www.southbeachprimal.com

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    • Originally posted by SouthBeachPrimal View Post
      Occupy wants to make the government that brought us this mess even stronger.
      That would explain why the government crushed it.

      Or not.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by sakura_girl View Post
        If they don't have a specific creative skill that they want to enhance the world with, then they used their creative energy to choose mind-numbing work and going home to do mind-numbing tasks. Choices are creative, too.
        Not everyone is really choosing to do boring work--in fact most people aren't. For the most part people do uninspiring, uninteresting jobs because it's the only way they know to feed, clothe and shelter themselves. Dismissing their plight as just another choice they've made is doing a real disservice both to them, and to society in general, because it leads to shrugging our collective shoulders and saying, "eh, they're doing what they choose to do, so who cares?" rather than, "why do 90% of jobs suck, and how could we make that closer to 0% instead?"

        I think the fact that the majority of adults are doing jobs they actively dislike out of a (perceived or real) lack of options is a serious problem. Bored, unhappy people don't do awesome stuff. They just get depressed.
        Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

        My Primal Journal

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        • Originally posted by Uncephalized View Post
          I think the fact that the majority of adults are doing jobs they actively dislike out of a (perceived or real) lack of options is a serious problem. Bored, unhappy people don't do awesome stuff. They just get depressed.
          This is very true. As I saw posted somewhere else, "My boring job I hate pays me too much to follow my dreams." Too often this is the case. My job blows but pays enough for me to pay the bills, buy food, and support my wife (a full time student). Doing something creative would rock, but finding it without loss of pay is not so easy at this present time.

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          • Originally posted by Uncephalized View Post
            Not everyone is really choosing to do boring work--in fact most people aren't. For the most part people do uninspiring, uninteresting jobs because it's the only way they know to feed, clothe and shelter themselves.
            "You say you hate your job, there's a support group for that -- it's called 'everybody'. They meet at the bar." ~ Drew Carey.

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            • Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
              I thought that you said, "but this system seems to be the most efficent now," or something to that effect.

              I wouldn't argue that we are bad at efficiency, but would add that government exists to limit that tendency.
              Well, yes and no. The government makes the system more efficient by continuing to place some resources where it should be. However, the system also becomes less efficient due to the fact that it doesn't add resources to where it needs to be, or at least gets in the way of that happening. It becomes a net 0 effect on the system's efficiency, resulting in why I believe that it's efficient for the technology/the way our society is, but doesn't do anything to accelerate the system's efficiency.

              Yay, more efficiency words! I think I used it twice per line :P

              Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
              Really? I think that we move toward INstability and IMbalance with action- when a father smacks a kid, that kid goes to school and smacks a class-mate, who goes home and smacks his dog, whose mother smacks his father. lol The first smacked kid doesn't go out and hug a cripple or protect the gay kid at school or some shit.
              Sometimes he does go out and hug a cripple. It depends on that person's personality. It all rebalances. You are thinking worst case scenario, where you are only extrapolating from your own personal anecdotes to form that opinion.

              Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
              ...


              uhhh no. LOL that's how you took it? No it means that I have to tell my wife, "Sue gets to go on vacation because she is good at lying and stealing money, and has no job consequently. You have to get back to work baby." Fuck sue- if I honestly thought that I could succeed in doing so, I'd get on a dirt bike and murder everyone like her until I came to the shores at the end of the continent.
              You are making it seem like money is really the only resource that matters. I agree with Uncephalized in that you should focus on what you enjoy doing. The intangible value of what you contribute to society will increase, and money will follow. Who cares what other people are doing to you; they are just a means of either getting in your way or helping you. If your real value is to be happy in what you are doing, the end and not the means, other things, like money, decrease in value to yourself and the result is more desireable. But that is just IMO...
              Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
              no when times are tough the government and its parasite attachments get fatter.
              And they, as people, degrade. What's your point.

              Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
              no- the world just is. I thought you were into Asian traditions...lol What about Lao Tsu? Siddhartha? "System" is how your ego makes sense of what is happening around you.
              I like to hybridize the culture of both Westerners and Asian. There is some things in culture, like independence, that I must value in order to live and succeed in Western society. My Asian-ness comes in when I need balance and peace, which there is none of in the Western world.
              My chocolatey Primal journey

              Unusual food recipes (plus chocolate) blog

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              • Originally posted by Rojo View Post
                Occupy is "damn-the-man". Paulista's are radical-chic Republicans.
                I haven't heard anything this idiotic and flat out false since the last time I watched MSNBC.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Primal Moose View Post
                  I haven't heard anything this idiotic and flat out false since the last time I watched MSNBC.
                  What's so idiotic? While NRA-Paulistas were polishing their guns and bloviating about liberty, black-blockers were actually fighting the Oakland PD.

                  While I'm with libertarians on a lot of issues, it's mostly a hip veneer laid over establishment values, a Stockholm syndrome with the ruling class.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Rojo View Post
                    What's so idiotic? While NRA-Paulistas were polishing their guns and bloviating about liberty, black-blockers were actually fighting the Oakland PD.

                    While I'm with libertarians on a lot of issues, it's mostly a hip veneer laid over establishment values, a Stockholm syndrome with the ruling class.
                    Black-blockers? You mean the losers who started the riots in Oakland? Who threw rocks and bottles at police? Were you in Oakland? I live in SF and know people who were there. I've seen the unedited footage. I saw the "protesters" start that shit. A bunch of children who shoulda been shot with live ammo, not bean bags, imo. You throw shit at cops who are just standing there, you get what you deserve.

                    You really don't think that Occupy wanted just a stronger status quo? Did you ever talk to any of them or did you just watch MSNBC all stary-eyed? And you really want to try to claim that the government squashed them? That would explain why so many public figures gushed over them. Why they were almost never kicked off of any of the areas that they squatted on. Why when a group of Tea Partiers petitioned a city for a refund of the fees they paid to protest and gather because the city was allowing a Occupy scum to squat there for free, they got hit with an IRS investigation...for money they didn't even owe!

                    If you really think that Occupy was a true damn-the-man movement, you are a moron (and that's being nice). And yes, there are a lot of ex-republicans who supported Paul. But that's because they woke up. Occupy children wanted a stronger nanny government to take care of all their problems for them. Fuck them and fuck anybody and everybody who supports(ed) them. Anyone who wants more and stronger government isn't worth the air it'll take to talk to them.

                    Comment


                    • Rojo, well said!
                      Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Primal Moose View Post
                        A bunch of children who shoulda been shot with live ammo, not bean bags,imo.
                        So I guess you're in favor of funding some forms of gov't.
                        Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Urban Forager View Post
                          So I guess you're in favor of funding some forms of gov't.
                          Of course. When did I say anywhere in this thread that we should have no government? There are legitimate roles of government. Defense, both at a national level from other countries and local from idiots who are going to throw rocks at police and bricks through store windows because the government doesn't take care of them enough from cradle to grave.

                          Comment


                          • Primalmoose, It's just that you said : "Anyone who wants more and stronger government isn't worth the air it'll take to talk to them." But it's okay to fund the expansion of the police state.
                            Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by sakura_girl View Post
                              ... it seems to me that whatever government we have at the moment is the most efficient that we can get, given our technology, access to resources, culture, etc. etc. I think humans are amazingly adaptable and can be efficient at everything, even if it doesn't seem so on the surface.
                              You are likely correct. However, 'efficiency' has what you might call negotiable virtue.

                              Consider this....

                              When the US invaded Iraq, the rate of US soldier deaths (all causes) fell. Yes, there were more battlefield deaths, but those were more than offset by the reduction in traffic accident deaths, drunken brawl deaths, and so on. At the same time, the rate of Iraqi deaths (all causes) soared. Not only were there more battlefield deaths, but the rate of death from other causes also climbed. As such, the 2nd Iraq war can be viewed as an example of the US government's efficiency when it comes to waging war.

                              When the US invaded Iraq, the US rate of new and unfunded debt accumulation skyrocketed. Literally trillions of dollars in future obligations were incurred, obligations that had no direct source of funding and would therefore need to be paid by taxpayers. Arguably, the economic crisis which gained widespread attention in 2008 was triggered and/or made worse by that rapid accumulation of new debt. The total cost, therefore, is mind-bogglingly difficult to calculate and perhaps will not be known for decades. The positive result of this war was the formation of a new and independent oil-producing nation ideally situated to sell oil to...Europe and Asia. As such, the 2nd Iraq war can be viewed as an example of the US government's inefficiency when it comes to waging war.

                              One event, two completely different efficiency ratings. What is more, they are measured on different scales (lives vs. dollars) so cannot be compared in any meaningful way. That's why I'm not sure that efficiency is really key.

                              Originally posted by sakura_girl View Post
                              My idea is that our technology isn't advanced enough. It isn't good enough to automate everything...
                              This is true. However, if you go back 50000 years (some time before the invention of Agriculture) and plot a curve mapping how true that is, you will notice that there is an exponential curve where 50,000 years ago we had some basic tools to augment what humans could do but very little true automation, 5000 years we had some tools to automate a few tasks, 500 years ago we could build complex clockwork devices for entertainment and were automating jobs like weaving cloth and putting words on pages, 50 years ago we were automating entire production lines to output completely finished products so long as no judgment was involved, and 5 years ago we were automating highly skilled areas of human judgment.... the pace is accelerating and we have already passed the point of 'automating every means SOME humans have to maintain a >0 marginal product'.



                              Originally posted by sakura_girl View Post
                              ...which would lead to an optimal, efficient system. If everything was automated, everybody would have the right information suited to themselves, which would help them make more focused, efficient decisions over the course of their lifetime. Instead, you have low-wage workers, who only know to appeal to the government in case things go sideways, which is obviously inefficient. We need to make our system efficient, since we as people are efficient operating in an inefficient system.
                              It isn't clear what will happen when everything is automated. Your conclusion that it would lower the cost of having correct information isn't out of line. However, it comes back to that marginal product idea.

                              Say you have a business with 2 workers, each with a total compensation cost of 100,000 (that's salary, insurance, taxes, everything they cost you). Let's say you make 400,000/yr in revenue. If adding a 3rd 100,000-cost worker would increase your revenue to 600,000, should you? Of course. The marginal product is linear so every new worker adds directly to your bottom line. You should add more than one. Maybe you should hire three more, and be making 1,000,000/yr gross.

                              Now say that in order to hire a 6th employee you would need a bigger facility raising the cost per head, and you are already capable of making more widgets than your distribution channels/customers will buy. Adding that 6th head isn't going to give you the same return as the previous 5. Let's say that taken together they bring in enough to cover their own costs to the organization, so at 5 employees you are netting 500,000, and with 6 you would still net 500,000. Should you hire employee #6? Not nearly so clear. That's a decision businesses face every day, and the answer usually depends on what you think the potential is...sometimes having more people improves other areas (participant quality of life, resiliency, ability to grasp opportunity, etc) not measurable on the bottom line. Sometimes it makes things worse (increased management difficulty etc). Whether you take that on will depend on where you think your company is going. Let's say you do.

                              Now say that the AI market analysis software in an automated widget works does it's hourly public information scan and spots that according to your last tax returns you are grossing 1,000,000. It drills down and determines that you are selling one fairly simple widget. It analyzes your widget design, determines its function, and uses a genetic algorithm to design an equally functional object that can be produced using 3d printing technology. It calculates the total cost of producing a single widget (including CPU time for the design and costs that will be incurred if the item is purchased), does a set of photorealistic 3d renderings, and uses Amazon Market to post that widget for sale at 1.2x cost. It then goes looking for the next widget to make. Note that at this point it's total cost of doing business is some computer processing time. When/if a customer orders the widget, the automated widget works produces a single copy, boxes it, and notifies UPS to pick up and deliver the product. The AI system then monitors Amazon's feedback system for reviews. If the average review is <2 it decides whether to repeat the design process or to scrap that widget line. If the average is >4 it pre-makes several of the widgets and ships them to Amazon for Amazon fulfillment, and dedicates more resources to refining the design. In general it compares the revenue potential of its entire library of widgets to determine which items to continue to enhance but remember that CPU power, while finite, may be essentially free.

                              Among the many changes that would bring to your life: Now you have a competitor that has zero up front costs (until it sells a widget), doesn't have kids to feed, and is programmed to look for a 1.2x return instead of 2x. It's a safe bet that employee #6 has just gone from 0 to negative marginal product. You are going to have to RIF him and try to get back to the old 100,000/yr per employee costs, in the hope that the AI and 3d printing tech is really really expensive and you have a chance of competing. It is very likely you will have to drop your prices, and it's realistic to suspect that the widget works will still be able to produce those widgets for less than your humans. So it's not just employee #6, your other workers will go from having a positive marginal product to a negative marginal product. You may need to drop back down to 2 workers, and those workers would need to be more productive, just to stay afloat.

                              In that scenario you may find that there is a sub-market which, for reasons the AI widget works can't deal with (e.g. the market is made up of customers who prefer to buy human-made objects), that would support one or two workers with a positive marginal product. Maybe. Or it may be that your customers don't really care and you will need to invent a new product or go out of business.

                              Now one way of looking at that scenario is that it increased efficiency and put relevant information in your hands. Another way of looking at it is that 6 or 7 people lost their jobs to an AI-controlled factory that is just on the cusp of being technologically feasible today. We have computer controlled 3d printers. We have genetic algorithms, we have photorealistic 3d rendering, we have automated retail via Amazon, we have automated analysis of public information. We have AI, though we don't have the sort of AI that can do what I described. Incrementally improve the existing technologies, put them together in the right way, and what I described is not that far-fetched.

                              When that happens... when someone successfully builds a fully automated widget factory that can decide what to build and sell what it builds... it will have a disruptive effect. There will be a period when it's considered a novelty the way Japanese products were a novelty at one point. Then there will be a period when such products are considered cheap junk. Then we'll have no choice but to face the reality of billions of people worldwide who can no longer sustain a positive marginal product in the traditional business world. Such machines will also go from building toy cars for kids to push around, to automated material handling equipment to feed the 3d printers...or entire copies of itself, so long as each new automated widget works has a positive marginal product.

                              But I am just a naive lady in her early twenties, possibly biased from a religious, Asian perspective somehow. I had no interest in politics several months prior, and I only have a few years of business acumen. So I'd appreciate any thoughts on ripping apart my logic here
                              Is Asia a religion now?
                              Last edited by Him; 01-30-2013, 02:10 PM.

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                              • Originally posted by Urban Forager View Post
                                Primalmoose, It's just that you said : "Anyone who wants more and stronger government isn't worth the air it'll take to talk to them." But it's okay to fund the expansion of the police state.
                                When did I say it should be expanded? If anything, the current police state should be shrunk, but that does not mean that it should not exist. I said it should be there. That it should exist and that it should be used to protect people's lives and properties. Wanting to have a police force (and military) that defends its citizens is not a expansion of force. It is a completely legitimate role of government. And stopping a marauding band of misfits from throwing bricks through windows or lighting buses on fire (like what happened here in SF after the Giants won the World Series) is a completely legitimate role of a police force.

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