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  • #16
    Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
    If your manic phases are associated with extreme grandiosity and delusions, even hallucinations, then I would worry about it. And if your depressive phases are associated with thoughts of suicide and actual plans to carry it out, I would worry about it. Worry means seek a psychiatrist, one who can prescribe medication. Real bipolar disorder has one of the highest rates of death of any mental illness, might even be the highest.

    But if your cycling is kinda less than actual bipolar disorder, I would try to stay out of the psychiatric system. I used to work in mental health and I'm pretty convinced that while what they can do with drugs and other treatments is pretty miraculous for the truly impaired, it's dangerous shit and they don't really know what they're doing. I'd look into that Nora Gedgaudas book or the Julia Ross book or both.
    I agree re medicating. I don't know the technical differences between psychiatrists, therapists, etc., but it might be useful to just talk with a professional (and it is of course always your decision whether or not to fill an rx). I went to see one of the therapists at my university after a few months of being in a funk like I'd never experienced before (I was conscious of the fact that I was the same age as my brother was when he passed away, but that wasn't explicitly the cause of my moods). It was both anxiety-producing and -releasing to talk with someone about my family, since I don't ever do that, but it was a net positive effect. I only had a few meetings before I had the most depressed summer of my life at home, and I wish I had stuck with it the following year.

    If there's no one in your life that you share this stuff with (in person ; p ), it could be helpful. Might help you make some connections in addition to the ones you've already noticed.

    Comment


    • #17
      Guys, thank you so, so much for the responses. I really appreciate them.

      This was actually the article I was reading right before I made my first post:

      http://raypeat.com/articles/articles...sanities.shtml
      and this one:
      http://raypeat.com/articles/articles...gression.shtml

      I know Ray Peat is quite contentious around here, but the article is fascinating. It's so frustrating to feel at the mercy of your mood, and believe me I've tried other approaches (therapy - check, spirituality - check) which helped but my dalliance with Primal and the consequent understanding of physiology it's given me confirm to me that there is something going on at a biochemical level. It's a complex topic and people are often quick to dismiss it ("you're just having a bad day"), which is why I don't think there's been exhaustive research into it. Anyway, my point is that Ray Peat's articles are quite deep, and give me food for thought. If you guys suffer in the same way that I do they might be of interest to you
      Last edited by YogaBare; 01-18-2013, 11:18 AM.
      "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

      In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

      - Ray Peat

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by namelesswonder View Post
        My experience is with depression and anxiety.

        Now... disclaimer: The book "The Mood Cure" dabbles with supplements (esp. amino acids) to help deal, what are essentially, nutritional imbalances that result in emotional disorders. I believe it warns that you should NOT dabble with these supplements to try and "fix" bipolar disorder. If that is what you have, I don't know enough about the supposed chemical roots (because nobody really knows how these things work and it varies so much) to say for sure that it would be safe to try these things. What works for you during an up period (to help you sleep restfully) may not work for you during a down period (to help you feel more energized and less depressed). I still think it's worth a read. That, or "Primal Body Primal Mind", but I don't know if that addresses Bipolar disorder specifically.

        The swings you've described from high to low (inexplicably, not just because a project is over or something) do not sound like the regular ups and downs of life to me. It's normal to feel a bit deflated when something you've enjoyed is over, but if you are feeling totally down for no apparent reason (in terms of events/occurrences in your life), that's not normal. Of course, take "normal" with a grain of pink Himalayan sea salt.

        I absolutely understand the frustration. After struggling with depression for my teen years and my adult life so far (not that long, I suppose), it can be really maddening to go in cycles of "okay" and "totally not fucking okay" and it leaves you thinking, "This again?! Why am I not better yet? Why can't I handle it this time?" It's not your fault. Trying to blame yourself less is a wonderful idea, even if it can be difficult to impose.

        Have you had your hormones tested? I am curious how that and your cortisol might show up during an up or a down period.
        Hey NW, thanks so much for the words of wisdom. It's true that this whole thing is still such unknown territory. All these labels have emerged and I think they actually impede understanding because it's just grouping symptoms and creating mental illness clubs. Anyway....

        And cheers for the compassion. It has gotten better as I've gotten more self aware in that I no longer say "WHY IS THIS HAPPENING???!!!! " Instead I just become aware that ... it is happening. It's still painful, but I accept it more, and I'm currently trying to make friends with it. Like, actually trying to enjoy the 'down' phases where I can't get out of bed by rationalising : "This is exactly what I want to do, right now and I don't need to feel guilty about it".

        I've seen that book before, but it doesn't resonate with me... don't know why?
        "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

        In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

        - Ray Peat

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Tribal Rob View Post
          Hey, yep it was a Yogi bear ref, I'm dyslexic so only tend to half read 75% of the actuall words I look at (this also explains why my typing and spelling is somewhat erratic at times) so I tend to read things how they look at a glance so many forum names are misread in my head

          I tottaly get the black days or weeks, I've just had a couple of days of being an ablolute miserable c**t, don't know why, but then I ate nothing all day (my mind said wha't the point in eating you'll only get hungry again, which had been part of what was stressing me)and in evening ate lots and lots and lots of sugary crap - gluten free triple chocolate cookies, coconut macaroons, galaxy bar, maltesers and almost a whole packet of jordans contry crisp ceral (that's half a fecking kilo )

          I then felt slightly better and decided I probably need to eat more carbs all the time to stop binging, I think for me low carb + stress = constant hunger; massive crash and sugar binge. mod carb + stess = copable just.

          Can't really coment on the sleep as it's been 4 years since I had a decent period of good sleep (4 year old who only just started sleeping when next one came along who is the lightest nighttime sleeper ever).

          But I do know that this lack of sleep is causing me stress, and making me a grumpy bugger, and that is not helping me keep things in perspective, which means I'm more likely to go into a down.
          So I do agree that sorting your sleep out could be a good start to getting out of this cycle. I assume you have tried all the normal stuff, white noise at night, very dark room, cut out blue light before bed, eating something carby before bed.

          I would also recommend self hypnosis for sleep if you haven't tried it, we did hypno-birthing for the births of the childerbeasts and we used to listen to the CD before bed, there were times when neither of us could remember anything past the first relaxation bit (less than 2 mins in) and we always slept well afterwards (baring being worken by the older one this time) Maybe having something carby before bed and hypnoing would see you through the night and stop either mid-night waking for snacks or 5 am waking to start doing stuff

          Not sure waht else I can say to help other than I know how you feel, and it does suck, you've already said you don't berate yourslef for feeling down anymore and I think theat is one of the most positive things you can do.

          I think that depressive or manic tendancies are something that those of us who have then just have to learn to embrace as part of themselves, you will never be the same as someone who dosn't get these mood swings and they will never understand how pointless it all feels when you are down. That tendancy will always be there, you learn to manage it in a way that works for you.
          Hey Rob, Thanks so much for the long reply and all the advice I really appreciate it. And yeah, my username is supposed to evoke Yogi Bear!

          Interesting that you're noticing the correlation between low-carb and binging too. I've been trying 33:33:33 but it's not really working. Even if I eat carbs I still get the insomnia, which starts the chain of events...

          Yeah Ive tried all those sleep things, and I have a great meditation that I listen to that helps me fall asleep, but staying asleep is my issue. I wake up repeatedly throughout the night... unless I binge.

          And yeah, you're right about embracing it... I'm trying to stop feeling like such a loser for not being happy and "seizing the day". Seriously, is there any worse phrase for a depressed person?! I'm realising that "seizing the day" is just doing exactly what you want, and sometimes that means not facing the world. That small realisation has made me feel a lot less tortured.

          Originally posted by Crabbcakes View Post
          Hello yogibare!

          I have to make this quick because I am heading out to piano lessons with the kids, so I will write more later - but you might try reading a book called "The Edge Effect" by Eric Braverman MD. I struggle with depression, too, and your OP really resonates with me. Anyway, this is a very interesting book - it deals with the main neurotransmitters and how to balance them. The guy still likes his whole grains, but does not harp on them overly much; it is his supplement lists and other holistic info that interests me. As I just went Primal 6 months ago, I am working on myself at this time with the Primal. Your post reminded me that I had this book in my collection and I dug it back out just to be able to give you the proper title and author. See you soon!
          Thanks so much for the recommendation Crabcakes - I just ordered it

          Originally posted by Louisa655 View Post
          Dear YogaBare: Embrace your differences, YogaBare --- because YOU are ABSOLUTELY PERFECT.

          /Lu
          Lu, that message brought tears to my eyes..! Thank you...

          I'm not SO young (31) so I've got three decades or experience, lol. I see that the "thinking" behind the depression has changed as I've gotten older, but essentially the emotional intensity has remained the same.

          Thanks for your kind words, observations, and reassurances. I do achieve a lot when I'm "up", but when I'm down I get so frustrated cos I keep getting these tastes of what I could "do with my life" if I could just sustain my energy (alhtough I'm trying to get over that phrase..!). The lows halt everything. But I'm hoping that by elimating the guilt it will help me get back up more rapidly.

          And you're right about opening up. I've opened up enormously in the last year towards family and friends and I've realised how empowering it is to be vulnerable. I actually had a massive breakthrough in my relationship with my parents by just telling them that I was scared they didn't approve of me or thought I was a failure. We all started crying. I told my close friends, and they are super-supportive, but I've still got the shame, because I don't think anyone realises how bad I actually get when I get down. I think think of myself as being weak. Anyway...

          Thanks again for your message
          "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

          In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

          - Ray Peat

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
            If your manic phases are associated with extreme grandiosity and delusions, even hallucinations, then I would worry about it. And if your depressive phases are associated with thoughts of suicide and actual plans to carry it out, I would worry about it. Worry means seek a psychiatrist, one who can prescribe medication. Real bipolar disorder has one of the highest rates of death of any mental illness, might even be the highest.

            But if your cycling is kinda less than actual bipolar disorder, I would try to stay out of the psychiatric system. I used to work in mental health and I'm pretty convinced that while what they can do with drugs and other treatments is pretty miraculous for the truly impaired, it's dangerous shit and they don't really know what they're doing. I'd look into that Nora Gedgaudas book or the Julia Ross book or both.
            Thanks sbhikes. It's a bit embarrassing, but yes, I did have those grandiose thoughts when I was in my early - mid twenties. They've definitely reduced and now when I'm up I just feel really good about myself and like I can achieve anything. I basically like a really well adjusted individual, lol. As I said in my OP, I do spiral into suicidal thoughts. Probably more frequently than is advisable. I feel uncomfortable talking about how dark that can be.

            Sometimes I do think I should just go on meds cos I do get worried about what I might do, but at the same time I really don't think they're the answer.

            Originally posted by sjmc View Post
            I agree re medicating. I don't know the technical differences between psychiatrists, therapists, etc., but it might be useful to just talk with a professional (and it is of course always your decision whether or not to fill an rx). I went to see one of the therapists at my university after a few months of being in a funk like I'd never experienced before (I was conscious of the fact that I was the same age as my brother was when he passed away, but that wasn't explicitly the cause of my moods). It was both anxiety-producing and -releasing to talk with someone about my family, since I don't ever do that, but it was a net positive effect. I only had a few meetings before I had the most depressed summer of my life at home, and I wish I had stuck with it the following year.

            If there's no one in your life that you share this stuff with (in person ; p ), it could be helpful. Might help you make some connections in addition to the ones you've already noticed.
            Thanks for your message sjmc Yeah, I've been for quite a bit of therapy... had quite a lot of trauma in the past which I knew I needed to work through. I also spent eight months in India, which is basically self help paradise, lol I'm not adverse to going back to talk to someone, and I will look into it, but I know this isn't just a psychological issue - it's multi factoral, and I really want to figure out if there's a way of balancing the infamous "chemical imbalance" without abandoning myself to Big Pharma.
            "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

            In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

            - Ray Peat

            Comment


            • #21
              Do you have an addiction? Video games, porn, television, internet?

              Addictions lead to low dopamine and other neurotransmitters receptors which manifests in psychiatric disorders early in life... like ADHD, anxiety, bipolar, etc.. if the addiction continues.. neurons start to die off and you have parkinsons disease.

              Vitamin A(beta-carotene/retinol/retinal/retinoic acid), VO2 max exercise and being intimate will express dopamine d2 and other neurotransmitter receptors.

              Vitamin A - Regulation of dopaminergic pathways by retinoids: Activation of the D2 receptor promoter by members of the retinoic acid receptor

              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17895527

              Obviously avoid the synthetic vitamin A supplements and try liver and/or leafy greens.

              Studies show exercise increases dopamine receptors

              Lack of minerals could cause your brain to crash. Leafy greens to balance the PH with the minerals.

              Air pollution is something to look out for.
              Last edited by cobalamin; 01-18-2013, 04:20 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Hi sorry for what you're going through, and sorry for this short reply, I'm on my phone. Over at Dr Emily Deans evolutionary Psychiatry there are 2 case studies of bipolar women trialling a ketogenic diet for their moods. Seems migraines , epilepsy, bipolar, are similar, & can all be treated with anti seizure meds... but keto is more successful. For kids with epilepsy 80% can eventually go off the diet with no return of seizures (presumably only of those for whom the diet worked enough to stay on it)
                ~Etta

                Edit: More Info - I'm at the computer now - Paul Jaminet at PHD has info on how to do a healthy ketogenic diet. Someone reported at his blog that his wife's migraines did not return on a normal trigger heavy diet after 7 months on the ketogenic diet.

                There was a group at Stanford Uni who tried to study this diet for Bipolar but they couldn't find volunteers, according to wikipedia.

                This gnolls article has links to more keto info. http://www.gnolls.org/1984/the-scien...c-flexibility/
                Last edited by EttaB; 01-19-2013, 12:46 PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Just in regards to discussing the darker times (suicidal thoughts), I've found that the more you talk about it, the less terrible it seems. For you, and for other people. It's nothing to be ashamed of, it probably occurs to more people than you would think. Even people who have only been through one sole dark period in their life will remember what that feels like. It helps to have allies in your struggle against yourself. Don't be afraid to speak up.
                  Depression Lies

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    For what my 2 cents is worth I'd like to say that I think it's a healthy step for you to ask for help & support. This place is loaded with it. I'm also not a fan of medication so that would be a last resort for me personally. There's been some good advice thrown out here. Have any of you had any experience with a neurolink practitioner? I see mine regularly instead of a medical doctor. She is also a chiropractor but I mainly use her to keep everything firing in the right order. It's a very strange process & those I try to explain it to look at me like I'm crazy but it works. For those that also use her, they toatally understand. If nothing else, at least read up on it. It can't hurt. I haven't been here for a while & I myself was feeling I needed a moral boost today. I always feel better after reading at this forum. Thank you all for your sincere concern for others. Hang in there yogabare, you are never alone.

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