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  • #16
    Back when I was a vegan, I hated that whole argument that I was "killing plants".

    I think I would have found it much more educational, and relevant, if anyone who cared to argue with me (believe me, I was the target of quite a bit of anti-vegan rhetoric over the years) would have gone with evolution, and adaptation, and the observable effects of using grains as a major food source, rather than trying to convince me that eating broccoli was as "cruel" as eating bambie.

    While I was in the vegan/raw vegan camp, I began to get a clue when I kept seeing people pushing more and more supplements, and some pretty far out ones at that, to address issues that just plain food should solve.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Mr. Koozie View Post
      What's so ethical about it? Plenty of creatures die to feed them too. Arguing isn't going to do any good so why bother. They're convinced they have found the perfect human diet. More bacon for us!
      Okay, I have to admit that this struck me as ironic as heck Not that I disagree with you, but it is kinda funny...

      --Me

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      • #18
        Originally posted by RaeVynn View Post
        and the observable effects of using grains as a major food source, rather than trying to convince me that eating broccoli was as "cruel" as eating bambie.[sic]
        Lierre Keith did a really good job in The Vegetarian Myth pointing out that plants are made of dead animals. NPK and all that. Neither act (eating a Bambi that grew from grass nor eating a spinach that grew from dead Bambis) is cruel. Both should be as spiritual an act as we can muster, although that's hard when we're so far disconnected from what we eat. It's great that a lot of us buy from local farms and get to see the animals that nourish us, but it doesn't lend itself, in my opinion, to the same reverence and appreciation as killing with ones own hands.
        The Champagne of Beards

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        • #19
          I've raised turkeys for meat the past couple of years and thank them for their sacrifice when we kill them. I know that they had a good life with lots of treats ( turkeys love watermelon and dandelions) and running around flapping in the sunshine. I used to be a veg as I do believe that animals have a spirit. Now I believe that means treat them well. A happy animal tastes better

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          • #20
            Lierre Keith talks woo woo crap to fit her viewpoint.

            People without an education in bacteriology and biochemistry should not go around telling lies on how the human body works.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by cobalamin View Post
              Lierre Keith talks woo woo crap to fit her viewpoint.

              People without an education in bacteriology and biochemistry should not go around telling lies on how the human body works.
              Well why don't you enlighten us?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by RaeVynn View Post
                Back when I was a vegan, I hated that whole argument that I was "killing plants".

                It is a silly argument. As is the argument of killing animals as the main argument against eating animals.

                Every living creature on Earth requires the sacrifice of another living creature in order to sustain life. The only living things that don't kill what they eat are some parasites, and even most of those end up killing the host and having to find another.

                Life requires death, whether from another animal, or from a plant.

                If you want to argue health issues or evolution, then you can have a proper discussion. Otherwise, ethical issues should be thrown out the door.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by RaeVynn View Post
                  Back when I was a vegan, I hated that whole argument that I was "killing plants".

                  I think I would have found it much more educational, and relevant, if anyone who cared to argue with me (believe me, I was the target of quite a bit of anti-vegan rhetoric over the years) would have gone with evolution, and adaptation, and the observable effects of using grains as a major food source, rather than trying to convince me that eating broccoli was as "cruel" as eating bambie.
                  Yep. I agree with this.

                  I was vegetarian and then vegan for years.

                  Keep in mind, one of the reasons vegans get away with saying it's "healthy" is because their diet is essentially the one recommended (spewed constantly) by health "experts," the media, etc. Whole grains. Plant foods. Low-fat. Less meat. (i.e. the whole "Meatless Monday" campaign). Technically, they have society and "science" standing behind their diet. So they feel justified in saying their diet is healthy. Indeed, it is often accompanied by a sort of smug superiority.

                  Having been on both sides of the fence, my recommendation is just to avoid these types of discussions with vegans. Hell, I don't discuss my diet with anyone unless they ask. I'm not the "gonna convert you" type.
                  Female, 40 yrs old, 5', 120 lbs (post-pregnancy)
                  Went Primal January 2, 2012!

                  Paleo Cooking for Cavekids cookbook

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by cobalamin View Post
                    Lierre Keith talks woo woo crap to fit her viewpoint.

                    People without an education in bacteriology and biochemistry should not go around telling lies on how the human body works.
                    Lierre Keith is an animist in the true sense. For the ethical arguments alone, her book is profoundly valuable. I don't know what issues you take with her science (That is, I don't claim to know whether she's 100% right or mostly wrong), but I still recommend the book, even if a grain of salt is required.
                    The Champagne of Beards

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                    • #25
                      Its impossible for us to be carnivores as lierre states. Long term ketosis leads to high levels of cortisol, high levels of cortisol promotes glucogenosis and then catabolism/muscle wasting in the long run, unless you inject yourself with testosterone to counter-act the negative effects of ketogenic diets have on testosterone levels.

                      Her comment about us not being able to digest cellulose is false and so is her comment about bacteria being able to break down the cell walls of whole vegetation. If bacteria could break down the cell walls of whole vegetation(cellulose/xylan/lignin/protein/fats) as she states; bacteria would start breaking down the whole world of plants. We would see trees falling down in a matter of weeks!

                      The truth is that mammals have teeth for the purpose of breaking down the cell walls and bacteria in the colon to hydrolyze the peptide bonds of cellulose(a chain of glucose molecules) into cellobiose, then glucose, and finally to short chain fatty acids. Including humans. I like to believe humans differ from gorillas(they lightly chew and gobble down their food) and ruminants(they regurgitate and rechew their food 150 times) in that we have intelligence(bigger brain) to understand the importance of chewing our food the first time and not needing a "large" compartment to ferment a lot of vegetation but I'm not so sure.

                      I am in no way supporting veganism.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by cobalamin View Post
                        Its impossible for us to be carnivores as lierre states. Long term ketosis leads to high levels of cortisol, high levels of cortisol promotes glucogenosis and then catabolism/muscle wasting in the long run, unless you inject yourself with testosterone to counter-act the negative effects of ketogenic diets have on testosterone levels.
                        Talk about woo woo! Show me the proof please? Gluconeogenisis is firstly and adequately stimulated by glucagon and requires no significant rise of cortisol even in a prolonged state. Any diet that is low in caloriesproduces the stress response with elevated cortisol.

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                        • #27
                          Something else to consider:

                          Ordering the vegetarian meal? There's more animal blood on your hands


                          Snippet:
                          the largest and best-researched loss of sentient life is the poisoning of mice during plagues.

                          Each area of grain production in Australia has a mouse plague on average every four years, with 500-1000 mice per hectare. Poisoning kills at least 80% of the mice.

                          At least 100 mice are killed per hectare per year (500/4 0.8) to grow grain. Average yields are about 1.4 tonnes of wheat/hectare; 13% of the wheat is useable protein. Therefore, at least 55 sentient animals die to produce 100kg of useable plant protein: 25 times more than for the same amount of rangelands beef.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by cobalamin View Post
                            Its impossible for us to be carnivores as lierre states. Long term ketosis leads to high levels of cortisol, high levels of cortisol promotes glucogenosis and then catabolism/muscle wasting in the long run, unless you inject yourself with testosterone to counter-act the negative effects of ketogenic diets have on testosterone levels.

                            Her comment about us not being able to digest cellulose is false

                            The truth is that mammals have teeth for the purpose of breaking down the cell walls and bacteria in the colon to hydrolyze the peptide bonds of cellulose(a chain of glucose molecules) into cellobiose, then glucose, and finally to short chain fatty acids. Including humans.
                            Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                            Talk about woo woo! Show me the proof please? Gluconeogenisis is firstly and adequately stimulated by glucagon and requires no significant rise of cortisol even in a prolonged state. Any diet that is low in caloriesproduces the stress response with elevated cortisol.
                            Talk about ignorance. Ketosis is very stressful and cortisol inducing to the sugar burning metabolism but, once adapted to the use of ketones, it is the least stressful thing in the world. We have much larger caloric reserves of fat to mobilize than glucose. And NH is right, severe calorie restriction is the real stress.

                            Testosterone shots? Really? Do any of our Primal hunks around here look like they need testosterone shots?

                            As far as the cellulose comment goes, that poster answered his/her own question. WE don't digest cellulose but our symbiotic bacterial friends do it for us. We don't have the long simian hind-gut for this however so our capacity is limited.
                            Last edited by Paleobird; 01-16-2013, 11:25 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                              Talk about woo woo! Show me the proof please? Gluconeogenisis is firstly and adequately stimulated by glucagon and requires no significant rise of cortisol even in a prolonged state. Any diet that is low in caloriesproduces the stress response with elevated cortisol.
                              Low protein calories.

                              How much meat do you have to eat daily?

                              How long is the prolonged state?

                              Can I see pictures of someone that has followed ketosis for 3+ months without carb intake, is muscular and hasn't injected themselves with hormones?

                              Ketosis is survival metabolism. Hence, we aren't carnivores.

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                              • #30
                                Talk about ignorant, cobalamin. Lierre Keith doesn't say we are carnivores nor does she say we are supposed to be in ketosis at all times. She simply says that life flows from other life, there can be no way of eating that doesn't require killing and to chase that imaginary belief means that more living beings, and indeed entire ecosystems, will have to die for your soy flakes than ever would have been killed for your bacon and eggs. To even believe you can voluntarily step out of the cycle of life is an exercise in insanity and hubris. To find the most ethical place in the cycle of life is to seek out what our evolutionary diet is, as that is the portion of the cycle of life where we are meant to be to do the least damage and make the proper contribution we were intended to make in the fecundity of the earth.
                                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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