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Ranting and rambling. Or, What's with the fads lately???

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  • #31
    The guy Mark showcases is barely eating for months on end [/QUOTE]

    Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
    Basically, he took on a diet that a lot of people could not maintain that isn't really primal....
    Worked for him, no doubt. But a discouraging message to overweight people to think they need to just function while hungry to lose.
    These made me think that maybe I was reading a different Friday success story from everyone else. I went back to see what I missed.

    As I understand it, the second time he focused on diet, he did an alternate day 'fast', eating normally one day, and eating within a four-hour window on the alternate days. In essence, a late lunch and a dinner. That doesn't seem like 'barely eating', or beyond maintaining by many, or needing to be hungry all the time.

    Or am I misunderstanding?

    What I thought was interesting about his story, was how he chose to focus all out for 100 days. Not many of us can or want to do that, but it is good to hear about the different methods people use to motivate themselves. And, I thought it was neat that one of the commentors was able to tell him that there is an actual term for this kind of experiment, a 'gong'. Learn something new every day.
    Last edited by Sabine; 12-27-2012, 07:16 PM. Reason: argh- multi-quote fail!

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    • #32
      Great googly-moogly! I go to bed and this thing blows up. This time difference makes it hard to respond to something in a timely manner. One more reason Afghanistan sucks.
      My Journal http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread74692.html

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Leida View Post
        As with any dietary approach, if what you do brings you to the finish line, be it slow or fast, you can maintain belief in it. You know that you do the right thing. And everything makes sense.

        If the approach does not yield results or leads you away from the finish line, then you start looking for something different. OR a miracle to get your faith re-established.

        The truth is that you can achieve unfavorable results with following the Primal Blueprint. People have gained significant amount of fat, acquired binging habits, screwed up their digestion, skin condition, etc. PB, like any other dietary approach is semi-empirical, not unfailable, and not universal. Dismissing negative experiments as 'whining' or 'something is wrong with you' is a property of faith, of course.

        Blessed are the believers.
        Leida, some people did have negative results. No denying that. I'd be willing to bet there were other contributing factors though. The majority of peopel who follow the PB see positive results, to varying degrees of course. I don't recall ever "dismissing" the negative results. I suggested other issues when someone feels they didn't meet their goals on the PB.

        Deleted my morning crankiness. Apologies, Leida, for being snippy.
        Last edited by Althaur; 12-28-2012, 07:52 AM. Reason: Lack of coffee and sleep.
        My Journal http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread74692.html

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        • #34
          Originally posted by otzi View Post
          You just described the missing element in PB. A quick way to get back to where you should be.

          I also hated reading these forums for years and seeing time and again, "I overate, now I will fast for 2 days" or "I'm doing my 3rd Whole 30 and still not losing".

          I stumbled across a vegetarian approach to safe, rapid weightloss last year. It was first popularized by Mary McDougall McDougall Newsletter June 2006 Mary's Mini-McD Diet in the 80's and recently revived by Ray Cronise Thermogenex - Fuel the Burn | in some random comments on his blog.

          We have spent months tweaking this diet, and have discovered some amazing things:

          1. Potatoes are a rich (maybe the richest) source of resistant starch, an element almost completely lacking in Primal Blueprint diet. Resistant Starch

          2. Potatoes are the most satiating of any food you can eat. Fullness Factor™ – NutritionData.com

          3. Potatoes contain protein (all essential amino acids) and are a great source of vitamins and minerals Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Potato, baked, flesh and skin, without salt

          4. Eating mainly potatoes for 7-14 days, while not extremely pleasant, results in rapid weight loss.

          5. Adding potatoes to your Primal Blueprint diet is an extremely cheap way to ensure you are getting the starch, resistant starch, glucose, fiber, etc... needed for good health without getting large doses of fructose and sucrose that comes with other carb sources.


          So, all-in-all, I think the "Potato Diet", "Primal Potato Diet", "Potato Reset", and "Super Secret Potato Diet" threads have all been positive learning experiences for everyone involved. If I had ever gotten a sense that potatoes were being used for evil, or a way of punishing oneself, I would have stopped talking about it long ago.

          I guess all new things start out as fads, but I really hope that people will give the Potato Diet a try. I think it serves a great purpose as a "Reset" for times like these, around the holidays, when life gets in the way and you get stuck eating (for whatever reasons) poisons and SAD foods which can bloat you and leave you feeling terrible for weeks. Many have been known to just say 'F--- it!' around this time of year when they see all their previous year's gains disappear in 2 weeks of office parties and family gatherings.

          Just to recap, this is what we decided the Potato Diet is:
          What is it with this belief there should be a quick way to accomplish ANYTHING? Accomplishment takes work. I don't care what the Potato Diet is. It's a crash diet. It's a quick fix. IN MY OPINION (read that again) it's an "easy" solution for someone who doesn't want to do hard work.

          I still enjoy potatoes while eating Primal. I don't gorge myself on them or only eat them for days on end. That would ultimately be unhealthy. Instead, I have them as part of a well thought out meal plan. Well, as well thought out as I can have eating in the chow halls out here right now. When home, my wife and I enjoy mashed sweet potatoes, or roasted baby potatoes with a roast. BUT, I realize they are one of many healthy food options. Not a magic pill.
          My Journal http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread74692.html

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Sabine View Post
            Perhaps it is missing for good reason. We may LIKE a quick way of reversing damage done to our bodies, but is it possible, and if so, is it GOOD for us. These are questions we should ask, rather than just looking for a 'quick fix'. Do the work, people. (And I say this as someone who has had a hard time doing it. It is not necessarily easy.)
            Well said, Sabine.
            My Journal http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread74692.html

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            • #36
              That is why PB was written in the first place, to go against the grain of CW in an attempt to get some new ideas and new thinking out there
              Actually, things like the potato fast are really CW at it's finest, restricting yourself to a few food items to lose weight quickly. Slim Fast, Grapefruit Diet, Juice Diet....come to mind. Or that cookie diet.

              I'm of the belief that if you don't lose the fat in a sustainable manner, you will likely gain it back. If I go back to CW eating, I'll gain all my PB loss back. If I lose 10 lbs on a potato fast and go back to 80/20 primal, I'll gain 10 lbs back. For me, the best option is slow loss in a format that I can eat for the rest of my life.

              My experience, but I have a lot of experience with dieting.

              On the fasting, great if you can sustain that. I can skip lunch a few days a week. I can't imagine being able to manage the every other day 4 hour window. You might be able to sustain it in a vacuum, but for most people, life will get in the way of that option. I'd say he has some likelihood of returning to primal and seeing some weight gain.

              I think the long term success stories (people who kept the weight off for years) would be those who followed and continue to follow the PB as written, with few if any tweaks.

              http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
              Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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              • #37
                I was wondering if anyone actually noticed that at least as far as the healthy ways SAD is on a merging course with Paleo. It seems that the majority of the nutritionists lately are accepting the necessity of increasing the fat intake and decreasing the grain consumption. I hear more and more advice on increasing fat and protein intake from the mainstream media. There is also a widespread, if vague awareness in the culture now that sugars, bread and pasta are fattening.

                I'm of the belief that if you don't lose the fat in a sustainable manner, you will likely gain it back. If I go back to CW eating, I'll gain all my PB loss back. If I lose 10 lbs on a potato fast and go back to 80/20 primal, I'll gain 10 lbs back. For me, the best option is slow loss in a format that I can eat for the rest of my life.

                My experience, but I have a lot of experience with dieting.

                On the fasting, great if you can sustain that. I can skip lunch a few days a week. I can't imagine being able to manage the every other day 4 hour window. You might be able to sustain it in a vacuum, but for most people, life will get in the way of that option. I'd say he has some likelihood of returning to primal and seeing some weight gain.
                That's exactly what I was trying to comment on. No matter which path you follow, in my experience, it takes the escalation of efforts to maintain weight loss, compared to the losing weight. So, if the weight loss was achieved by extreme measures, be that one-food item type eating (be that potatoes, coconut oil, grapefruits), fasting, long-term under-eating, cardio-marathon, ingesting chemical aids, the weight will not stay down. I think that is confirmed by the statistics that most people regain their weight loss over the years.

                I would still argue the point that Primal Blueprint or Paleo in or of itself is an antitheses to 'CW". CW is simply a high-carb and low fat approach. People can and will take it to extremes - just like they take Paleo and Primal to the extremes. It is human nature to be impatient and keep the eyes on the goal.

                Yet, maybe the most useful thing that i have learned in my Never-ending Journey through the Nutritional Wonderland was the little story in Susan Albers book. It went like this:

                An apprentice came to the wise Master and asked how long it will take him to achieve the enlightenment. The Master thought and answered: 10 years. The Apprentice asked: What if I try REAL HARD? The Master said: 20 years. The Apprentice did not give up: "What if I try really, really, REALLY hard?" The Master said: 30 years.

                "Why?" asked the Apprentice.

                Because when you keep one eye on the goal, you have only one eye on the road.

                CW, Paleo, Primal, Slow Carb, Perfect Health Diet, Zone, even Vegetarian - those are, again, empirical approaches that work for a group of people because they manage to hit the macros ratio and food selections that keeps an individual at his or her best with the highest satiation. Now, what individual does after he or she tried the diet determines the success. Pushing the concept to the extremes OR changing it too much (remember, empirical part!) often results in a quick success but a long term waste of time. In general, though, I think that the more the omissions are there in a diet, the smaller is the group of people who achieves the success on it. Again, in the short-term, restrictions cause the losses - simply not much to eat. In the long term - they cause either psychological or physiological bottle-necks in the system.

                Interestingly, I think the most valuable part of the Primal Blueprint is the fitness concept. The nutritional concept is simply an arbitrary and murky restrictions on a whole food diet concept. I think a person who desires the best outcome should not be in a hurry, and start with the Whole Foods by simply eliminating everything processed, and then continue eliminating only if it doesn't work.

                Now, if I only could practice what I preach, lol.
                Last edited by Leida; 12-28-2012, 07:08 AM.
                My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                • #38
                  I think a person who desires the best outcome should not be in a hurry, and start with the Whole Foods by simply eliminating everything processed, and then continue eliminating only if it doesn't work.
                  Exactly. I think that most people would gain excellent health on a whole foods diet, while losing weight slowly. If you go from SAD to a rounded diet of meats, fruit, veg, starches and even grains you would lose weight. I think CW skews a little to far to the grains and leaves people malnourished.

                  For me, eating primally has led to being more nourished. I swear, I used to be missing out on something and desperately trying to get to it via sweets.

                  Fitness is such a key as well. I think like our diets, fitness needs to be rounded with long and slow, weights and hard cardio (sprints). It's balancing all 3 that makes a good body.

                  We need to live healthily- sleep, stay low on stress and be happy.

                  If you get those 3 things, your body will drop fat to a healthy range. The crux of that is that a healthy range is a range and a lot of our mental image of the ideal is of bodies that are actually in an unhealthy range or gotten by unhealthy means. I think that is what trips women up. It's not enough to be a healthy size 10 or 12, so we malnourish ourselves, add too much exercise and add in stress to be what is now an unhealthy size 6, with our body wanting to be that healthy size 10.

                  When our bodies are being fed correctly, we should feel no anxiety about eating or foods. I hit on that back in October. Not too much restriction, limited desire for junk. Every meal hit the spot. Now I have veered into Christmas Junk Land... I need to get back to equilibrium- probably a Whole 30 then back to the way I ate in october.

                  You can't reach this equilibrium by treating your body like a dumpster for crap food- we all know this. But you also can't reach this equilibrium with crazy restrictions. You will over-correct at some point.

                  http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                  Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                  • #39
                    I dont understand why the potato hack has so much momentum. It worked for a few people and they seem to be the ones pushing it across multiple threads and websites. Atticus kept very detailed results and his BF% loss was a matching number from a caloric deficit. He also lost a bunch of lean mussle mass. Some reported gaining weight, some reported getting sick...IDK Dont get me wrong I love the n-1's. But if its not sustainable in the long term neither will be the results.

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                    • #40
                      You can't reach this equilibrium by treating your body like a dumpster for crap food- we all know this. But you also can't reach this equilibrium with crazy restrictions. You will over-correct at some point.
                      Exactly. Even if restrictions do not at the first glance appear to be severe or crazy it can potentially trigger really bad reactions. Been there. I know, it's hard to believe, but I think a lot of us are self-medicating through food instinctively. And if you happen to self-medicated through a white potato or banana, and the Whole 30 tells you not to eat it, or you gotta drop bananas to cut down the BF%, well, the end result is unlikely to be a success.

                      I am supplementing magnesium, after experiencing leg cramps of my lifetime. I did not before because I love, just love buckwheat and ate it all my life before going paleo. Coincidence?

                      Actually, that for me would lead to Bobert's statement about the potato diet - it might be gaining so much attention because the restriction on the potatoes is not the high point of the Primal. It makes a very acute point, contrasting the satiation mechanisms of a ketonic vs resistant starch. However, if you look at the data, there is always a portion of people who try who do stellar on either. Hunger shuts down, they feel happy and not obsessed with food - they managed to re-acquire the nutrient and the chemicals that balanced their system. Fasting works the same for a number of people. However, in all likelihood, most people are not so strongly attuned or so well adjusted to succeed on the restrictions. The wider the variety of foods they eat that do not hurt them the more is the likelihood that they are satisfying their body needs.
                      Last edited by Leida; 12-28-2012, 07:51 AM.
                      My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                      When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Bobert View Post
                        I dont understand why the potato hack has so much momentum. It worked for a few people and they seem to be the ones pushing it across multiple threads and websites. Atticus kept very detailed results and his BF% loss was a matching number from a caloric deficit. He also lost a bunch of lean mussle mass. Some reported gaining weight, some reported getting sick...IDK Dont get me wrong I love the n-1's. But if its not sustainable in the long term neither will be the results.

                        I dont see anything wrong with that either. I push Primal/Paleo/PHD across many threads and websites also.

                        Atticus, is he the guy that did it for months? We are not talking months. We are talking a few days to a couple of weeks. Use it only when you need to. A day here or there, just like a fast or just like skipping lunch. Are those fads as well? And maybe by definition they are. But if they are tools you use ongoing, I don't classify that as a true fad. Same as a carb refeed. Maybe that is a fad also. But it is something that now I know I should do once in awhile, and when I do, I know that I can use potatoes.

                        The original question, is what is with the fads lately, and ppl trying to find a quick fix. JMO, but if you have been doing primal for a period of time, and not seeing the results that you want, it is time to shake it up. And it can be done still using Primal foods. That doesnt mean you are doing it wrong. It just means you are doing what works for you.

                        I went Primal in March, and weight loss started to crawl. I lost 20lbs between March and October. (actually I was pretty much eating primal before that. Just different macros) At that rate, I will reach my goal weight in a couple of years. Like 4 or 5. Sorry, for me, I am not waiting that long. I am going to tweak until I find what works for me. CW dieting at 50carbs/30fat/20protein was getting it done at about 10lbs per month. Trouble was, I was hungry all the time. Now I have learned a thing or two about what satiates me. I have learned about where my calories need to be. And I have learned a few tricks or "fads" to move things along. That might be a couple days of HF/LC followed by a few days of higher carbs. I have learned that alot of days (to weeks & months) of HF doesnt cut it for me. But, I did learn that yes, I can maintain my weight on high(er) fat. But I am not ready to maintain it yet. I still need to lose it yet.

                        So maybe we are seeing the "fads" now, because ppl have been doing primal for awhile now, and yet they still arent quite where they want to be, so now they are trying to tweak off those last few pounds. So what if it is all tators now. So what if it is all cantaloupes in the summer. Mark has written plenty about seasonal eating. We are not talking extended durations.

                        Some ppl see fasting for days as just as crazy and just as extreme. And I think we all know you cant do that for an extended duration either, but some do use it now and then when they feel they need it. Or maybe cuz they just want to. I could probably eat all steak for a few days on end also. And I would probably drop a few pounds also but at some point it becomes not good for you.

                        But as far as not sustainable long term, keeping the quick little hack in your back pocket is sustainable. Take a day here and there and eat all meat. Or eat all tators. Or maybe you need a refeed. Or eat all eggs. Maybe there was a good sale. Or don't eat at all - maybe there was no sale and you are broke. Use your resources and knowledge to the best of your ability.

                        I think it is great for those of you that have reached your goal weight eating primal. How many pounds and how long did it take you? For those that havent reached your goal, how much is left and how long do you think it will take you yet? As I already mentioned, for me, I would like to lose another 70lbs. At 60% fat my weight loss crawls to almost a stop. I was lucky to get 2lbs a month. At 1.5lbs per month, it will take me another almost 4 years. To me, it doesnt make sense knowing that there are things that I can do about it, and not do it. Even just tweaking my macros around a little, improves it. Maybe I just need to eat tators a couple days a week. Maybe I need to fast a couple days a week. If I can't, or don't want to, then I need to be content at following the outline as written, and losing 1.5lbs per month. That is better than none I guess. Upwards around 70%+ fat, I actually lose no weight but I can easily maintain. I just dont want to maintain my extra 70lbs for any longer than I have to.

                        Sorry. I guess I rant also. I have been at this for over a year. Slow changes on my own for almost a year, then seriously trying to focus and learn and apply for a year. Primal since March. I am just trying to figure my own self out. Share my experiences. Maybe something might help someone else, either what to do or what not to do.
                        65lbs gone and counting!!

                        Fat 2 Fit - One Woman's Journey

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                        • #42
                          Althaur, I have to say your original thread post was a breath of fresh air. Its been interesting to see the Forum evolve over the short time I've been following and posting. I've been getting a bit tired of the somewhat petty and acrimonious back and forth and was thinking about moving on, but your post has caused me to reconsider...Thanks!
                          Recent Blog: http://www.peakperformanceradio.net/...y-john-saville

                          https://www.facebook.com/PaleoJourne...?ref=bookmarks

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                          • #43
                            I'm certainly an advocate of maintaining a primal diet. I am not one who utilizes the 80/20. I never go off the wagon and eat pizza, pasta, bread or cookies. I lost 55 pounds in ten months. I am content at this weight but wouldn't mind losing another 7-8 pounds which I imagine will be more difficult than previous weight loss. Mostly I am extremely determined to prevent weight creep. I reached my target weight in early November and just in the last week have crept up a bit thanks to snacking on nuts and cheese (so I wouldn't eat the Christmas crap most people indulge in). Normally it takes me one or two weeks to lose a pound or a pound and a half. Doing the potato hack I lost that in two days. Why would I not take this shortcut? It's not like I'm eating frankenfoods.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by gopintos View Post

                              I dont know, I dont see the big deal of people tweaking primal to meet their goals.
                              I agree. For me, primal is what you make it. Sure, there are some limits. Eating a vegan diet with soy would not be primal, but messing with macros? Sure, why not. Potatoes are primal to some people. Eating dairy is paleo to others.

                              The thing I saw with last Friday's success story is that it was a great example of n=1. This guy clearly embarked on an extended EXPERIMENT. I did not think that was unclear in his story, that these were tweaks, that he was experimenting, trying out new things, but they aren't long term solutions. All of the Friday success stories are n=1. If people don't see them that way, I don't think it's a problem with the content.

                              And maybe things were different in the earlier days of the forum. I think that's to be expected. Maybe it's not evolving the way you'd prefer, but this is just kind of what happens. Keeping things "on topic" is pretty much impossible with this number of people. Everyone has a right to say and try what they want. I did sympathize with the OP's rant, and found myself agreeing here and there, but that's only because other people's experiments don't mesh with my own. Eat potatoes if you want, just remember that it's not a fix for everyone.
                              Last edited by namelesswonder; 12-28-2012, 08:43 AM.
                              Depression Lies

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                              • #45
                                Doing the potato hack I lost that in two days. Why would I not take this shortcut? It's not like I'm eating frankenfoods.
                                Well, does it remain lost when you return to primal eating? Or does it come back?

                                http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                                Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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