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Congressional Committee Casts a Harsh Eye On Vaccination Science

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  • #16
    Originally posted by JoanieL View Post
    AMonkey, I showed at the top of this page about 2.3 people per million were killed by measles before the first licensed vaccine. That is just one rational argument against vaccinating everyone.
    This statistic is not very useful in isolation. You need to know the death rate as a result of the vaccine to compare to the death rate in unvaccinated people due to the disease the vaccine prevents. Death is also only one of the direct effects of measles, which can include nerve and brain damage (including encephalitis that can lead to permanent retardation) as well as subsequent infections like pneumonia that can easily kill themselves, especially when the body is already weakened from fighting the original infection. This somewhat obscures the real death rate because measles deaths can be "hiding" behind the secondary infections that show as the official cause of death. Of course, children, the elderly and the immunocompromised are the most susceptible to these complications.

    The death rate due to the vaccines is not necessarily an agreed-upon number either, because parents will nearly always blame any medical procedure performed in the weeks or months preceding a child's death, even if there is no evidence the vaccine (or whatever) actually contributed to it. The reality is that babies dies every day of all kinds of things, and sometimes it just happens that they had a vaccination last week when they suddenly stop breathing in their sleep--the same is true of autism, which often manifests around the same time as infant vaccinations, despite being unrelated to them, creating a widespread post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy in parents of autistic children.

    Some of the deaths may be caused by the vaccine, but even being charitable to the unsupported claims of devastated, grieving parents it is clearly a much lower rate than in an unvaccinated population, dozens per year at the very most (and probably fewer), compared to the hundreds we could expect without the vaccine. And that doesn't even take into account the improvement in quality of life for the hundreds or thousands of other people who are spared mental retardation and other crippling side effects they would otherwise experience, compared to the (again, perhaps) dozens per year who may get such side effects from the vaccine.

    And MMR covers diseases that are relatively harmless compared to some other vaccines, like TB and pertussis. The argument in favor of those vaccines is even stronger, which is not to say MMR is weakly supported.

    Originally posted by JoanieL View Post
    Hating people who have differing opinions is irrational.
    Well, sometimes. When their "opinion" is killing children through the promotion of ignorance and innumerate pseudo-reasoning, it's a little easier to understand the impulse.
    Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

    My Primal Journal

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    • #17
      I'm not killing any children, I didn't even have any.

      You make some good points, but sadly, the people we rely on for information too often have agendas. They then can't be offended when people start doubting their word.

      It doesn't have to be one way or another. Parents could decide the risks of each vaccine vs the risks of the disease on a disease by disease basis. But only if they're given true information by health professionals they trust.

      But vaccinating everyone for everything for which we have a vaccine? I think it may weaken the species. No worries though, since I won't be killing any children.
      "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

      B*tch-lite

      Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by JoanieL View Post
        I'm not killing any children, I didn't even have any.
        I didn't say any one person is killing children. The anti-vaccination movement is killing children by convincing parents not to vaccinate. The number of children killed by the movement will be directly proportional to the number of families who do not vaccinate.

        Originally posted by JoanieL View Post
        You make some good points, but sadly, the people we rely on for information too often have agendas. They then can't be offended when people start doubting their word.

        It doesn't have to be one way or another. Parents could decide the risks of each vaccine vs the risks of the disease on a disease by disease basis. But only if they're given true information by health professionals they trust.
        What motivation do you think the CDC, for example, has to misrepresent or lie about vaccine science?

        Originally posted by JoanieL View Post
        But vaccinating everyone for everything for which we have a vaccine? I think it may weaken the species. No worries though, since I won't be killing any children.
        I would like to hear your rationale for this. I can see maybe promoting the survival of immunocompromised children through herd immunity reducing the selective pressure for strong immune responses, but in general, vaccines work on the presumption that the person being vaccinated has a more-or-less functional immune system capable of generating working antigens. And for me, I'd rather keep children from dying than worry about whether a few people go on to reproduce who have poor resistance to measles. I don't think a person's value as a member of human society has much of anything to do with whether they managed to survive childhood infections on their own or with medical assistance.
        Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

        My Primal Journal

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        • #19
          What about studies that have shown that children who are unvaccinated are healthier than those who are vaccinated? I vaccinated my child up until the point I started learning more about the "science" behind the vaccines. I regret my decision to follow my doctor's advice blindly. I might have selectively vaccinated on an alternate schedule or I might not of vaccinated at all. Unfortunately, I did not have the information available so that I could make an informed decision. I believed the hype that they were safe. Then I learned that the science is not exactly as it is portrayed to be and the chemical cocktail being injected is unreal.

          I know I would not have allowed the toxic overload of chemicals particularly aluminum which no one mentions but is way past the level for general safety. http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/vaccines/vaccine-faqs When I told my pediatrician I didn't want my child (4) to have any more shots, he pushed back on booster shots. I held off a year asking for a titer he turned me down saying it was unhelpful. I wrote to Dr. Sears and got his advice on titers. The following year I brought that information to my pediatrician and he reluctantly agreed to do a titer on my child. Low and behold she was immune to the disease he wanted to give her the booster shot for. I did ask for a polio vaccination for my child at that time. The following year I asked for a tetanus shot (again hoping to selectively vaccinate). My doctor tells me "oh she had that last year." Apparently, when I asked for the polio vaccine only ,they went ahead and vaccinated my child for diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, and polio. Not exactly what I asked for. I am appalled and my trust in not only my doctor but the medical community as a whole was shaken. I don't use conventional medicine but kept the pediatrician as back up in case of emergency. Not sure I want someone who goes against my wishes making decisions in an emergency. And that is part of the problem. We are not informed. The information about what is in the vaccines and their potential dangers is not provided when you are sitting in the pediatricians office being told your new born needs x,y,z vaccines. Also the US vaccination schedule makes no sense. Why are day old babies injected with a vaccine for a sexually communicated disease? Does that make sense? Even if you are pro-vaccine how does that make sense? An alternate schedule reducing the number of vaccines in early childhood should be acceptable. Bombarding immature immune systems with toxic chemicals should be illegal.

          Finally, telling people they are wrong for the decisions they make about their children is absurd. Telling people you hate them because they have a different opinion is equally absurd and rather disturbing.
          Last edited by Primal123; 12-07-2012, 09:44 AM.

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          • #20
            I have two small children and I really didn't know one way or the other about the safety of vaccinations until I read this article in Wired magazine: An Epidemic of Fear: How Panicked Parents Skipping Shots Endangers Us All | Wired Magazine | Wired.com

            At the time I read the article, I was unbiased with an open mind. I've since does some additional research and the case for vaccinations appears grounded in scientific study, and the case against vaccinations seems mostly grounded in anecdotal evidence.

            So I had both of my daughters vaccinated.
            Last edited by skolvikings; 12-07-2012, 08:23 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Primal123 View Post
              What about studies that have shown that children who are unvaccinated are healthier than those who are vaccinated?
              If you have seen such a study and know where it can be found, I would love to read it, or at least the abstract. Any chance of a link?

              Originally posted by Primal123 View Post
              Finally, telling people they are wrong for the decisions they make about their children is absurd. Telling people you hate them because they have a different opinion is equally absurd and rather disturbing.
              Parents are not automatically immune from criticism or being wrong just because they have the right to make certain decisions for their children, who are not old enough to make them for themselves. We don't allow parents to beat their children (actually in this country we largely do, but we shouldn't), we don't allow them to lock their kids in dark closets when they misbehave and we don't allow starvation, denial of lifesaving medical attention, or other neglect and abuse. This is because children have rights to life, relative safety and freedom from abuse and neglect that trump parents' rights to do such things. Not vaccinating your children falls squarely in the camp of knowingly and unnecessarily endangering the life and health of a child. It is neglect. All of the facts of the matter as I understand them support this. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. When fewer children are vaccinated, more children die of preventable disease. That's the bottom line and no amount of argumentation about nebulous threats and unsupported assertions is going to change that. And yes, that means that you really are in the wrong if you don't vaccinate.
              Last edited by Uncephalized; 12-07-2012, 10:08 AM.
              Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

              My Primal Journal

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by skolvikings View Post
                I have two small children and I really didn't know one way or the other about the safety of vaccinations until I read this article in Wired magazine: An Epidemic of Fear: How Panicked Parents Skipping Shots Endangers Us All | Wired Magazine | Wired.com

                At the time I read the article, I was unbiased with an open mind. I've since does some additional research and the case for vaccinations appears grounded in scientific study, and the case against vaccinations seems mostly grounded in anecdotal evidence.

                So I had both of my daughters vaccinated.
                That was an excellent article with some very helpful links included. Thank you for posting it.

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                • #23
                  If you're a Netflix streaming subscriber, here is a good PBS documentary on the debate over vaccinations: https://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/F...e_War/70138090. It covers the issue from both perspectives and I enjoyed watching it.

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                  • #24
                    Anti-vax people are the only ones I have sometime violent reveries about beating to death with a hammer.

                    That and Islamic terrorists.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Uncephalized View Post
                      If you have seen such a study and know where it can be found, I would love to read it, or at least the abstract. Any chance of a link?

                      Parents are not automatically immune from criticism or being wrong just because they have the right to make certain decisions for their children, who are not old enough to make them for themselves. We don't allow parents to beat their children (actually in this country we largely do, but we shouldn't), we don't allow them to lock their kids in dark closets when they misbehave and we don't allow starvation, denial of lifesaving medical attention, or other neglect and abuse. This is because children have rights to life, relative safety and freedom from abuse and neglect that trump parents' rights to do such things. Not vaccinating your children falls squarely in the camp of knowingly and unnecessarily endangering the life and health of a child. It is neglect. All of the facts of the matter as I understand them support this. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. When fewer children are vaccinated, more children die of preventable disease. That's the bottom line and no amount of argumentation about nebulous threats and unsupported assertions is going to change that. And yes, that means that you really are in the wrong if you don't vaccinate.
                      I think you can google search it as well as I can.

                      As for the rest I think I'll just agree that we disagree. You have your opinion. I have mine. I think injecting helpless children with poison is criminal. I'm all for vaccinations as long as they are not loaded with chemicals. As I mentioned I did vaccinate my child and I think the way it was done was a mistake that I regret.

                      I'm done.

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                      • #26
                        If vaccines don't have anything to do with autistm then why did the vaccine court (yes, there is one) award settlements for this very thing?

                        Why do most other industrialized countries recommend far, far few vaccinations? Look at European and Nordic recommendations and then look at our vaccinations for the large difference.

                        Why do we give infants vaccines that require an immunological response that they are not capable of mounting until around age one?

                        Why are children vaccinated for pertussis contracting it at higher rates than non-vaccinated children?

                        Why do we routinely jab newborns for an STD vaccine?

                        Why are we freely administering the chickenpox vaccine without warning people about the resulting increase of shingles?

                        Look, I don't know a single person in real life that believes a single vaccine caused their kids autism. It is a lot more complicated and vaccinations are just one part of that. There are certainly times that some vaccinations make sense. It is not black and white and anyone that thinks so it uneducated on either side. If I had to make these choices again, I would choose based on my current situation and not on blanket recommendations that aren't very effective for my family. The best blanket solutions are things like clean water, proper sanitation, and staying away from others when sick. Unfortunately, it's bad for the economy for workers to stay home and, frankly, hard in this society;plus, Big Pharma wouldn't make a ton of money so vaccines for everyone! ;-)

                        Saying you hate or want to harm people that question vaccinations only make your arguments weak. You can't actually come up with an intelligent response so you lash out.

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