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The Presidential election, Union vs Confederacy?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Bushrat View Post
    So when the civil war comes which side do you all fall on [secessionist or statist for lack of a better description]? And do you think your cause [secede or prevent seceding] is worth fighting for?
    Secessionist for sure. But let's not perpetuate the idea that violence is the only way to solve problems. The Soviet Union was one of the most barbaric governments of the 20th Century, but when it fell apart, it did so peacefully (for the most part). The same thing can happen here and that is what we need to be aiming for.

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    • #32
      And the pot dominoes start to fall, now Vermont and Massachusetts join the party.

      Less than two weeks after Washington and Colorado voted to legalize and regulate cannabis, lawmakers in five other states say they are considering similar bills.

      Ian Mulgrew: Drug dominoes begin to topple

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      • #33
        Originally posted by JWBooth View Post
        Secessionist for sure. But let's not perpetuate the idea that violence is the only way to solve problems. The Soviet Union was one of the most barbaric governments of the 20th Century, but when it fell apart, it did so peacefully (for the most part). The same thing can happen here and that is what we need to be aiming for.
        I'm not saying violence is necessary, but it is a great way to figure out how dedicated you are to a cause.

        So I am curious, for those Americans who want to secede if doing so meant you had to fight for it, would you?

        And, for those Americans who don't want secession, would you be willing to fight to stop it happening?
        A steak a day keeps the doctor away

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        • #34
          To follow on, I am not an American, just an interested observer. I am really curious to see where everyone on MDA falls:

          So, an informal poll:

          1. Where do you live?
          2. What are you sympathies, secession or not secession? If you have no strong inclination either way, where would you want to live if secession happened?
          3. Do you feel its worth fighting over?
          A steak a day keeps the doctor away

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Bushrat View Post
            To follow on, I am not an American, just an interested observer. I am really curious to see where everyone on MDA falls:

            So, an informal poll:

            1. Where do you live?
            2. What are you sympathies, secession or not secession? If you have no strong inclination either way, where would you want to live if secession happened?
            3. Do you feel its worth fighting over?

            1. Arizona
            2. Not succession. We voted. Obama won. Next time vote for someone else and convince others to do so as well. But hell, let's actually run some candidates worthy of a vote.
            3. America is certainly worth fighting over. That said, I prefer to fight with laws etc. The first thing we need to do is repeal the 17th Amendment. Lets get some power back to the states. Then we can get it back to the people where it belongs.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Bushrat View Post
              So, an informal poll:

              1. Where do you live?
              2. What are you sympathies, secession or not secession? If you have no strong inclination either way, where would you want to live if secession happened?
              3. Do you feel its worth fighting over?
              1. Florida
              2. Hard core secessionist. If Florida left the union, I'd probably move to Key West and agitate for them to leave Florida and become a Free City.
              3. Freedom is worth fighting for, but I probably wouldn't fight. I think the lessons of the past century have taught us that non-violent resistance is actually far more effective. The Federal Government spends more money on its military than the rest of the entire world combined. A violent revolution would be a bloodbath. Killing people is about the only thing the Federal Government is actually good at. But if we hit them instead with massive civil disobedience, I just don't think they'd know what to do.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Bushrat View Post
                To follow on, I am not an American, just an interested observer. I am really curious to see where everyone on MDA falls:

                So, an informal poll:

                1. Where do you live?
                2. What are you sympathies, secession or not secession? If you have no strong inclination either way, where would you want to live if secession happened?
                3. Do you feel its worth fighting over?
                1. The Middle East, but an Alabama original.
                2. My sympathies are on the side of natural rights. Secession is most certainly a natural right of any polis, an extention of the concept of self-determination which has direct lineage to your right of liberty. The Declaration of Independence was at once the continuation of a political conversation between the British Colonies of North America and the Crown and an act of secession. Actually, the State of Virginia seceded well before anyone else having ratified the worlds oldest written constitution. I highly recommend it, but not in the way those of you reading this are thinking I mean that. I mean North, Central, and South Alabama should secede from each other. I think Western and Eastern PA should secede from each other. Pittsburg and Philly have nothing in common, why force them to accomodate each other? New York City and upstate New York..... may as well be two different countries. I wouldn't suggest that they leave the United States. I would suggest that through their divisions, they add States to the mix. Each of these new political bodies would be afforded their 2 Senators and representation in the house. Power must be devolded to the lowest levels possible. The only way to accomplish this in a way least disruptive to society is to divide power and then divided it again. That being said, look what we've accomplished with what freedoms we're accorded within these borders. We have the illusion of liberty, but better than most places on Earth..... imagine how good it can be were we to increase that. Imagine how good it could be if we actually established a government that respected your right to life, liberty, and property and stayed the F#@$ out of your business. I don't think the North American experiment should be abandoned, but we must change the way we view government or it's all over but the crying.
                3. Secession is a natural right. It is necessarily a peaceful, political act. Anyone "fighting" to stop it is fighting a war of subjegation and is necessarily a tyrant.
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                • #38
                  Originally posted by BONZ View Post
                  3. Secession is a natural right. It is necessarily a peaceful, political act. Anyone "fighting" to stop it is fighting a war of subjugation and is necessarily a tyrant.
                  Could not have said it better myself.

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                  • #40
                    1. Where do you live?
                    San Francisco, CA (God, save me from the crazies...can't wait til I'm done with school...)

                    2. What are you sympathies, secession or not secession? If you have no strong inclination either way, where would you want to live if secession happened?
                    I believe that secession is a natural right that states that should be able to be on the table. We're a union. Unions have the right to be dissolved. However, from what I've seen, the majority of the current movement has been spearheaded by being sore losers and doesn't appear to be founded on any principles. That being said, if somewhere seceded and I felt that A, they were on sound principles that I felt would create a better environment to live in and B, somewhere where I would want to live; than sure, I'd try to get there.

                    3. Do you feel its worth fighting over?
                    When it's on sound principles.

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                    • #41
                      1. San Francisco as well.

                      2. No secession. There's about a dime's worth of difference between Obama and Romney. Both have to follow the dictates of capital and empire.

                      3. Lover, not a fighter.

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                      • #42
                        1. Where do you live?

                        Money, Texas

                        2. What are you sympathies, secession or not secession? If you have no strong inclination either way, where would you want to live if secession happened?

                        a) Democracy only has legitimacy in the context of free association. You can't form a group, force yourself on someone, and say, "we voted." b) Free association is only free if it is severable. c) Democracy ceases to be legitimate if you disallow secession. That said, I don't personally think it is a good choice for any US states today.

                        3. Do you feel its worth fighting over?

                        Absolutely. What's the quote? ""I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I personally disapprove of secession, but if a state voted to leave the union and wasn't allowed to, I'd fight to help them. People have a right to make their own way in life even if their choices are dumb.

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                        • #43
                          Originally posted by Bushrat View Post
                          To follow on, I am not an American, just an interested observer. I am really curious to see where everyone on MDA falls:

                          So, an informal poll:

                          1. Where do you live?
                          2. What are you sympathies, secession or not secession? If you have no strong inclination either way, where would you want to live if secession happened?
                          3. Do you feel its worth fighting over?
                          1. NO, LA. (By way of OR, WA, NJ, OH, FL, CA, and NY.)

                          2. I think it's a pipe dream. I want to live anywhere I can dance in the streets, smoke an occasional cigar or doob in a bar, and flip the bird to whomever/whatever I want without fear of arrest.

                          3. Maybe, but I'm old, and I'm not much into fighting. But if you're talking about working off the grid, living as much off the grid as possible, supporting only those institutions/businesses you find congruent with your beliefs, I very much support that kind of fighting.

                          "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

                          B*tch-lite

                          Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

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                          • #44
                            1. I live in Fredericksburg, Virginia.

                            2. I believe that secession is a basic human right; without it, there can be no escape from tyranny. A couple of subsidiary points about that:

                            a. My belief has nothing to do with Obama, Romney, Bush, or any other political parasite. As set forth in America's statement of secession from Great Britain, aka the Declaration of Independence, people have a natural right to leave a government that is not acting in their interests.

                            b. I don't think the time is right for secession by any of the states. Indeed, I believe secession will be unnecessary: the American empire is crumbling before our eyes and DC will eventually lose its ability to govern, just as Moscow did when the Soviet Union fell apart.

                            3. If by "fighting over" it, you mean picking up my musket and going after the bad guys from DC, then no, I don't think it's worth fighting over. As I said above, the country is going to come crashing down anyway. If you mean physically defending my person, my family, and my property in the event of some social upheaval that might include secession by some states, then hell yes.
                            Live your life and love your life. It's the only one you get.

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