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  • McDougall and this years scientific expert

    Every year McDougall holds Advanced Study Weekend in Santa Rosa. His scientific goto guy last year was Nathaniel Dominy PhD he stated that humans are starch eaters and have always been so, meat is a very small component of the human diet, always has been.

    This year he trotted out Katharine Milton PhD. She trashed the paleo diet and has written papers objecting to basically the stupidity and falseness of the paleo concept of meat eating hunter gatherers. Apparently she thinks the research is careless and not interpreted correctly and the diet is basically another fad.

    Anyways, I always like to see what the vegan avengers (Mcdougall, Furman, Ornish and so on) are thinking and spewing.

    Primal/Paleo is not for everyone, it's for those who have committed to understand.
    READ THE BOOK! ...as Robb Wolf says: "Trying to convince people to save their own ass will burn you out."

    Vegetarians are the enemy of everything good and decent in the human spirit, and an affront to all I stand for -- the pure enjoyment of food. Anthony Bourdain

    and yes, calories DO count my little piggies

  • #2
    Because, we're all primates right???? Honestly, it's common sense. If you are a hunter-gatherer, what provides more nutrients, taking down some big ass animal and eating it, or eating (and possibly digesting) a bunch of trees/bushes. And what happens when you live in an area where the vegetation isn't edible??? Sun -> Plant -> Cow -> People, mmmm delicious.
    "The problem with quoting someone on the Internet is, you never know if it's legit" - Abraham Lincoln

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    • #3
      What always occurs to me when vegetarians/vegans reference chimpanzees and their diet which they claim should be our diet is...WE ARE NOT CHIMPANZEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Our brains are larger and require different nutrition, our guts are smaller and we are not hind gut digesters. We do not need to eat and crap for 8 hours per day and so on. Why do the veggy folks want to be chimpanzees? When the genus homo appeared 2.4 million years ago we were on our way using tools to crack open marrow bones and skulls. We were on our way to homo sapiens. The last vegetarian ancestor, Australopithecus, is thought to have eaten a largely fruit diet...it went extinct. HELLO!, it went extinct and homo evolved, eating MEAT and whatever he could find.

      Primal/Paleo is not for everyone, it's for those who have committed to understand.
      READ THE BOOK! ...as Robb Wolf says: "Trying to convince people to save their own ass will burn you out."

      Vegetarians are the enemy of everything good and decent in the human spirit, and an affront to all I stand for -- the pure enjoyment of food. Anthony Bourdain

      and yes, calories DO count my little piggies

      Comment


      • #4
        I read her paper that you linked to, as well as reference 2, and they were pretty good reads. I appreciate all these videos and links you provide.

        But one thing I'll never understand is how an anthropologist could be aware of the dietary habits of hunter gatherers--who typically have one or two (usually) non-grain staple carbohydrates as their main energy source--and not cry foul at US dietary recommendations. I mean, if we want to be free of disease and fit like hunter gatherers, we don't need to waste our time with some bullshit allthecolorsoftherainbow salad and bread; we can just exercise, eat cassava, nuts and animals (in any ratio) and call it a day. Surely they know that?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Moochy View Post
          What always occurs to me when vegetarians/vegans reference chimpanzees and their diet which they claim should be our diet is...WE ARE NOT CHIMPANZEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Our brains are larger and require different nutrition ...
          Quite. End of argument. The brain is the point.

          Have you seen the two videos from Dr. Leigh Broadhurst (a brain chemist from the University of Maryland)? One of the best, if not the best, short explanations of how we came to be how we are. Both videos linked from the bottom of this page:

          BRAIN GUT 14: PERSONAL GROUND ZERO | Living an Optimized Life

          That's real academic research. Wishful thinking from vegetarians is neither here nor there.

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          • #6
            Oh, and if you want to hamper your thinking and quite likely give yourself psychological problems, eat how McDougall tells you. You can't run a Ferrari engine on two-stroke fuel.

            McDougall -- a Scots patronymic, meaning "the son of Dougall". Wouldn't his canny Scottish ancestors have been ashamed of him?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Lewis View Post
              ....the two videos from Dr. Leigh Broadhurst (a brain chemist from the University of Maryland)? One of the best, if not the best, short explanations of how we came to be how we are.
              It may be a good time to repost this link: When the Sea Saved Humanity, Made Interactive: Scientific American. It was linked here several years back and forget who made the initial post (credited to...?)

              The 3rd thumbnail, on the bottom left, 'Watch' is about the food sources of this environment and how it helped to make us who we are.
              Retirement has afforded me the ultimate affluence, that of free time (Sahlins/Wells)

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              • #8
                This is what struck me, as I was watching the video:

                "I am not familiar with the latest modifications of the paleo diet, but if the paleo diets being advocated at present are stating that humans should take most of their daily caloric substrate as meat foods, I would just say it is a ridiculous idea and statement." [emphasis mine]

                Obviously, she is not familiar with the paleo diet. Although there are some variations of the paleo which include meat only (Inuit pops to mind) the majority of paleo/primal diets call for meat and vegetable matter.

                But I object to someone who calls themselves a scientist making this kind of statement:

                "I know nothing about what I am going to attack, but if it is this thing, then that's ridiculous."

                What kind of logic is that?

                Learn about your topic so you state the premise clearly, and why you disagree with it. Do not assume the paleo diet is saying something, just so you can attack that something. Find out what it says. It would only take an hour of your time.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sabine View Post
                  This is what struck me, as I was watching the video:

                  "I am not familiar with the latest modifications of the paleo diet, but if the paleo diets being advocated at present are stating that humans should take most of their daily caloric substrate as meat foods, I would just say it is a ridiculous idea and statement." [emphasis mine]

                  Obviously, she is not familiar with the paleo diet. Although there are some variations of the paleo which include meat only (Inuit pops to mind) the majority of paleo/primal diets call for meat and vegetable matter.

                  But I object to someone who calls themselves a scientist making this kind of statement:

                  "I know nothing about what I am going to attack, but if it is this thing, then that's ridiculous."

                  What kind of logic is that?

                  Learn about your topic so you state the premise clearly, and why you disagree with it. Do not assume the paleo diet is saying something, just so you can attack that something. Find out what it says. It would only take an hour of your time.
                  Good points. I rather regret posting #6 now. I suspect McDougall's ancestors probably would have been ashamed of all this nonsense, but perhaps it's best not say so. It's just ... it's not that I wish to defend paleo or anything like that, it's that McD's obsessions have consequences in the real world. He'll mislead the impressionable and damage their health.

                  I think you're quite right to say that she's no business speaking on something that she herself admits she's "not familiar with". And "recent modifications" is no excuse.

                  So new it only just made it into paperback days ago ... but out long enough in hardback for her to have read it:

                  The Paleo Answer: 7 Days to Lose Weight,Feel Great,Stay Young: Loren Cordain: 9781118404157: Amazon.com: Books

                  Then there's pubmed. Anyone with a PC can access that:

                  cordain - PubMed - NCBI


                  Here's what answers her implicit question right off the bat:

                  Estimated macronutrient and fatty acid intakes fro... [Br J Nutr. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

                  It took me all of about 3 minutes to find that. It's Cordain's 2010 take on macronutrient ratios. And I quote:

                  We found (range of medians in en%) intakes of moderate-to-high protein (25-29), moderate-to-high fat (30-39) and moderate carbohydrates (39-40).
                  As for the specific question about what "daily caloric substrate as meat foods":

                  known hunter-gatherer plant/animal food intake ratios (range 70/30-30/70 en%/en%)
                  How hard was that? Anyone with a PC and an internet connection, and cognisant of the name "pubmed" and the name of the author of The Paleo Diet can find that in the time it takes to boil an egg.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lewis View Post
                    ... in the time it takes to boil an egg.
                    Oops, sorry.

                    In the time it takes to eat some tofu.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Moochy View Post
                      What always occurs to me when vegetarians/vegans reference chimpanzees and their diet which they claim should be our diet is...WE ARE NOT CHIMPANZEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Our brains are larger and require different nutrition, our guts are smaller and we are not hind gut digesters. We do not need to eat and crap for 8 hours per day and so on. Why do the veggy folks want to be chimpanzees? When the genus homo appeared 2.4 million years ago we were on our way using tools to crack open marrow bones and skulls. We were on our way to homo sapiens. The last vegetarian ancestor, Australopithecus, is thought to have eaten a largely fruit diet...it went extinct. HELLO!, it went extinct and homo evolved, eating MEAT and whatever he could find.

                      Nope, we are not chimps but the argument is invalid anyway because Chimps are omnivores. They do eat meat. Sheesh! Maybe she needs a steak so she can think clearly.
                      Karin


                      Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Calorie Counter

                      What am I doing? Depends on the day.

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                      • #12
                        Here is an interview to add on to his article he wrote attacking paleo. He has declared a war on paleo. He maintains the science is all wrong and the archeologists know that humans have always been starch eaters...for 2.5 million years. The guy is nothing but adamant.
                        Primal/Paleo is not for everyone, it's for those who have committed to understand.
                        READ THE BOOK! ...as Robb Wolf says: "Trying to convince people to save their own ass will burn you out."

                        Vegetarians are the enemy of everything good and decent in the human spirit, and an affront to all I stand for -- the pure enjoyment of food. Anthony Bourdain

                        and yes, calories DO count my little piggies

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Of course, that's not what archaeologists say.

                          And we already know why his "position" is wrong. That's been covered extensively in this thread.

                          He's a nutcase and unable to take an objective view of things. Beyond a certain point does it even matter what he says or what he thinks? I suppose he'll keep on misfeeding himself till he has diabetes or cancer or Alzheimers or something else. No one could dissuade him. The pity of is that he will deceive the weak-minded and harm them.

                          But, as I say, beyond a certain point ... Looking at his views is a bit like looking at a running sore you can't help or heal. One might as well endlessly discuss what Islamists believe with regards to the origin and age of the earth and the proper punishment for adulterers.

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                          • #14
                            We do eat starch, but starch usually comes from roots and tubers in hunter-gatherer societies. And the paleo diet includes starch. So what is the problem? I really just don't understand why people get all freaked out about not eating grains. Why is that such a big deal?
                            Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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