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Polyamoruous Love Sickness: Can This Be Primal?

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  • Originally posted by PHaselow View Post
    We should all read "The Female Brain" and "The Male Brain" and start a new thread.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/bo...pagewanted=all

    Really quite interesting. I am half way through the Female version. It is science based, and gives quite an insight into gender behavior. We really are different.
    .

    Did the use post menopausal (all) women like they usually do for medical studies?
    Starting Date: Dec 18, 2010
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    • Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
      the OW is evil. she should be uncomfortable with this situation. she's being a terrible friend to your wife.
      Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
      It takes two to tango- yeah, the OW may not be perfect, but our poster had a role in this too.
      OW is profoundly hurt and that makes her selfish, not evil. I was supposed to be the strong one but I let it go too far before I recognized what was happening...

      ...and that's being dishonest. I let it go too far before I was willing to see what was happening. So, magnolia1973, I don't really like what you're saying because it's the truth. Maybe I was even the lead in this dance, and despite what I tell myself and everyone else, I'm a pig who preys upon emotionally vulnerable women. I don't want to believe that, but it's intriguing that no one has taken OW's side in this.

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      • ...and that's being dishonest. I let it go too far before I was willing to see what was happening. So, magnolia1973, I don't really like what you're saying because it's the truth. Maybe I was even the lead in this dance, and despite what I tell myself and everyone else, I'm a pig who preys upon emotionally vulnerable women. I don't want to believe that, but it's intriguing that no one has taken OW's side in this.
        It's not what I'm saying- maybe neither of you were evil assholes. But saying other posters saying "oh, the OW is the problem"... well, not so much. I don't know, I wasn't there. I do know my husband TO THIS DAY, blames the OW for his cheating, right down to the "saving her from a real asshole". Well, he didn't have to fuck her, he could have just given her advice. The "knight in shining armor saving the (now manipulative, evil) damsel in distress" is dubious.

        I don't think you are an asshole for falling in love with two people. The asshole only starts when you start to blame the affair on anyone but yourself- the OW, her husband or your wife. (*please note I have not seen you do this, just read other posts of the OW being evil.... hell, we don't even know her).

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        • my b/f and i have been together for 10 years. for the first 5 of those, i WAS the ow. however, unlike the op, his marriage was in toxic tatters before i came along. (i was not his first infidelity, but all the others had just been very short flings.) through what was an intensely selfish beginning we have built something we feel bullet-proof for the long haul. it's a very secure thing to be loved unconditionally. it sounds to me the wife is offering that to the op. it's rare, my friend. don't squander it.

          eta: my b/f and i admit we were parties to a very bad thing. we hurt his wife, his children and his family. his ex-wife takes no personal culpability at all in the breakdown of their marriage. to this day, it remains all his fault.

          i have also been on the receiving end of unfaithfulness.... in all honesty, for me, it was the lying that broke things, not the f*cking.

          so i think i can see most sides here.

          but there is no "side" to take nor defend in this saga. the op allowed himself to drift into fantasy and a bit of knight-in-shining-armor do-goodery. but by confiding in ow, and not his wife, he did commit some emotional betrayal. the ow seemingly encouraged the op, even though she is bff's with the wife. her self-loathing won't allow her to think through and realize her actions may cause harm to those around her, not just herself. she's been hurting herself for years and it only makes for self-centered behaviors. she married and took back a douchebag. fool me once, shame on me -- fool me twice, ya know? only she can change this pattern of behaviors. it doesn't come by the lopsided example the op tried to pretend he was giving.

          it was very brave to have this conversation with your wife and she sounds incredibly loving. make sure you continue to deserve that. what does she have to say about her friend? is it possible they had discussed this little emotional dalliance before you came forward?
          Last edited by noodletoy; 10-11-2012, 08:13 AM.
          As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

          – Ernest Hemingway

          Comment


          • as far as grok and emotions and fidelity? lmao. monogamy and marriage are constructions of the church, to aid in men consolidating wealth and assets. it had nothing to do with "love", only power. marrying for "love" is a very recent notion and makes peeps make all high-holy-hell of bad decisions.

            my understanding is that aboriginal and hunter/gatherer groups had/have far more fluid norms about sexuality and who does what with whom. tribal living is the norm, so the offspring of any spread seed were cared for by many, not just in a tiny household like now.

            for generations, it was more comfortable for male researchers to stick with the notion that women are inherently monogamous and men are innately randy. all sorts of misguided, ignorant and hurtful notions of women's carnality helped keep women second-class and housebound. in many cases, literally. denying them education, reproductive rights and hobbling them with corsets and hoop skirts. here's a fan and some smelling salts, miss, in case that overheated vagina gives you any trouble. The Straight Dope: What is nymphomania?

            today in many cultures, the idea of a woman being sexually autonomous remains so threatening that they undergo clitoral mutilation. women are forced to be covered from head-to-toe when in public, to prevent men from attacking them. it's not the man's fault for lacking self-control, it's that she-devil showing her elbow.
            As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

            – Ernest Hemingway

            Comment


            • Originally posted by LordPistacchio View Post
              OW is profoundly hurt and that makes her selfish, not evil. I was supposed to be the strong one but I let it go too far before I recognized what was happening...

              ...and that's being dishonest. I let it go too far before I was willing to see what was happening. So, magnolia1973, I don't really like what you're saying because it's the truth. Maybe I was even the lead in this dance, and despite what I tell myself and everyone else, I'm a pig who preys upon emotionally vulnerable women. I don't want to believe that, but it's intriguing that no one has taken OW's side in this.
              I'm not cutting her much slack because that reduces her to a weak, emotional thing to whom bad things happen. Which, incidentally, absolves her of any guilt, and firmly places all responsibility (whether you're saving her or screwing her) on your manly shoulders. I'm not cutting you much slack either, but I find it interesting that this continues to be framed through a lens where you are the majority player and she's just a damaged woman who can't do anything to help herself.

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              • Originally posted by PHaselow View Post
                We should all read "The Female Brain" and "The Male Brain" and start a new thread.

                http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/bo...pagewanted=all

                Really quite interesting. I am half way through the Female version. It is science based, and gives quite an insight into gender behavior. We really are different.
                +1

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Zanna View Post
                  I'm not cutting her much slack because that reduces her to a weak, emotional thing to whom bad things happen. Which, incidentally, absolves her of any guilt, and firmly places all responsibility (whether you're saving her or screwing her) on your manly shoulders. I'm not cutting you much slack either, but I find it interesting that this continues to be framed through a lens where you are the majority player and she's just a damaged woman who can't do anything to help herself.
                  Yeah, that's kind of what I'm seeing too. You "letting" it get too far removes any responsibility from OW, which isn't fair. It doesn't matter how "damaged" one is, you are still responsible for your own actions. Can they be a bit excused for emotional duress? Yes, I'd like to think so. I would not like to think that someone hated me because I was rude to them while in the midst of a deep depression, but it's still my responsibility to DO something about the depression. Maybe that is a bit harsh to some, it's a fine line, I think, but that's how I feel. I wonder how much OW really WANTS to change/get help, but that's a whole 'nother story.

                  Good luck with the counselling. I think that and separation from OW will help.
                  Depression Lies

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by PHaselow View Post
                    We should all read "The Female Brain" and "The Male Brain" and start a new thread.

                    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/bo...pagewanted=all

                    Really quite interesting. I am half way through the Female version. It is science based, and gives quite an insight into gender behavior. We really are different.
                    And the end of that NY Times article states....
                    "What’s the evidence for all this? Brizendine cites a single 2008 brain-scan study, of 14 women and 12 men, which found a gender difference in part of a lab experiment that tried to simulate empathy. The paper itself declares that “functional neuro*imaging data on gender differences in empathy remain scarce.” When I asked a couple of scientists to weigh in, one said he wouldn’t base any substantive conclusion on this paper, since initial findings of sex differences in the brain often don’t amount to much. The other pointed out that if men and women really processed emotions differently, you’d expect to see far greater variation in fMRI data.

                    Yet one of Brizendine’s more believable claims is that when she weaves theories like the one about TPJ for her patients, they smile with recognition. Maybe this is because the science will one day catch up with Brizendine’s ideas. Or maybe as a species we’re predisposed to be preoccupied by difference, as the Harvard psychologist Elizabeth Spelke argues. Or maybe we are still in recovery from that brief time in the 1970s when boys really were expected to play with dolls and some New Age man somewhere hung his house with crystals.

                    But isn’t it time to acknowledge that any rigid insistence that men and women are exactly the same has long since given way to common sense? Brizendine’s trick, after all, is to give a scientific veneer to “Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus.” Which dates to 1992. At this point, it’s hardly daring to say that there are momentous innate sex differences in the brain. It’s just dubious."

                    As I've stated before... while there are many women and men who fit a set of normative feminine and masculine 'values' perfectly (enough to form major stereotypes)... just as many do not (enough to form other alternate stereotypes).
                    Many lie somewhere in the middle... and some are polar opposites to the reactions you'd expect from the sex.
                    The brain chemistry is not so simple as female sexual organs = has all feelings as all women do.
                    Or the same equation but for male sex organs and men.
                    Not by a long shot.

                    There are sex/gender issues that come into play.
                    Sex and sexuality issues, that may or may not change a persons feminine or masculine traits.
                    And many other issues, such as how our society and culture DEFINES what masculine and feminine traits are.
                    Last edited by cori93437; 10-11-2012, 09:58 AM.
                    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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                    • Originally posted by noodletoy View Post

                      ...is it possible they had discussed this little emotional dalliance before you came forward?
                      I suspect so. I know they've been talking together a LOT about the funk I've been in lately.

                      Originally posted by Zanna View Post
                      I find it interesting that this continues to be framed through a lens where you are the majority player and she's just a damaged woman who can't do anything to help herself.
                      No, she's not helpless and she has engaged in some pretty significant manipulation and deceit. But right now, I don't think she's fully capable of understanding consequences. What's my excuse?

                      Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                      The "knight in shining armor saving the (now manipulative, evil) damsel in distress" is dubious.
                      Not dubious, it's a lie. I lie I told myself. Not that altruistically aiding others can't be its own reward, but when there's damsel, with big brown eyes...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                        And the end of that NY Times article states....
                        "What’s the evidence for all this? Brizendine cites a single 2008 brain-scan study, of 14 women and 12 men, which found a gender difference in part of a lab experiment that tried to simulate empathy. The paper itself declares that “functional neuro*imaging data on gender differences in empathy remain scarce.” When I asked a couple of scientists to weigh in, one said he wouldn’t base any substantive conclusion on this paper, since initial findings of sex differences in the brain often don’t amount to much. The other pointed out that if men and women really processed emotions differently, you’d expect to see far greater variation in fMRI data.

                        Yet one of Brizendine’s more believable claims is that when she weaves theories like the one about TPJ for her patients, they smile with recognition. Maybe this is because the science will one day catch up with Brizendine’s ideas. Or maybe as a species we’re predisposed to be preoccupied by difference, as the Harvard psychologist Elizabeth Spelke argues. Or maybe we are still in recovery from that brief time in the 1970s when boys really were expected to play with dolls and some New Age man somewhere hung his house with crystals.

                        But isn’t it time to acknowledge that any rigid insistence that men and women are exactly the same has long since given way to common sense? Brizendine’s trick, after all, is to give a scientific veneer to “Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus.” Which dates to 1992. At this point, it’s hardly daring to say that there are momentous innate sex differences in the brain. It’s just dubious."

                        As I've stated before... while there are many women and men who fit a set of normative feminine and masculine 'values' perfectly (enough to form major stereotypes)... just as many do not (enough to form other alternate stereotypes).
                        Many lie somewhere in the middle... and some are polar opposites to the reactions you'd expect from the sex.
                        The brain chemistry is not so simple as female sexual organs = has all feelings as all women do.
                        Or the same equation but for male sex organs and men.
                        Not by a long shot.

                        There are sex/gender issues that come into play.
                        Sex and sexuality issues, that may or may not change a persons feminine or masculine traits.
                        And many other issues, such as how our society and culture DEFINES what masculine and feminine traits are.
                        Oh, I get that this won't fit everyone. The book is much more than just that one study and the analysis of adult behavior. It goes through other studies of infants/children that many of us who had college courses probably remember. I still think it is very interesting, but I'm not changing my life based on what I read.
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                        • Originally posted by LordPistacchio View Post
                          Not that altruistically aiding others can't be its own reward, but when there's damsel, with big brown eyes...
                          then its not truly altruism

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                          • This thread has gone on longer than I ever anticipated and my story really doesn't deserve the attention. But I would like to thank everyone who has responded. There isn't a single response that hasn't be helpful or thought-provoking in some way. And even though some of them were stern, none were condescending or mean-spirited.

                            What will happen:
                            • I will see a therapist
                            • My wife will get more loving attention than she can stand
                            • No cheating with OW will happen
                            • At a minimum, no situations that facilitate sex with OW will happen
                            • AND it makes sense to distance myself from OW somewhat, but our families are too close for separation


                            The only new update is that my wife and OW are arranging a double date with me/wife and OW/douchebag for tomorrow evening. I'm terrified.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
                              then its not truly altruism
                              Semantically correct. But then altruism isn't truly possible.

                              Comment


                              • wow people - I head to bed last night totally up to date with this saga, then this morning BOOM........ 2 more pages !!!!!!!

                                Originally posted by noodletoy View Post
                                is it possible they had discussed this little emotional dalliance before you came forward?
                                WTF, Are you telling this right ????? They talked about this BEFORE all this happened ????? Is this some sort of test ?????
                                Are you just a wee pawn in a game that these two chicks are playing ?????
                                "never let the truth get in the way of a good story "

                                ...small steps....

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