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  • #31
    Originally posted by Legbiter View Post
    Libertarianism can't work; it would pretty much immediately either dissolve into chaos or neo-feudalism. And you, my friend, would NOT be one of the lords, you'd be a serf like 95% of the population.

    This is like arguing with Marxists, except in reverse.
    America isn't heading towards neo feudalism now?
    Starting Date: Dec 18, 2010
    Starting Weight: 294 pounds
    Current Weight: 235 pounds
    Goal Weight: 195 pounds

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    • #32
      Originally posted by kenn View Post
      America isn't heading towards neo feudalism now?
      I'm pretty sure we're most of the way there already, kenn.
      Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

      My Primal Journal

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Legbiter View Post
        Libertarianism can't work; it would pretty much immediately either dissolve into chaos or neo-feudalism. And you, my friend, would NOT be one of the lords, you'd be a serf like 95% of the population.

        This is like arguing with Marxists, except in reverse.
        There's this weird thing where people say - 'well you know, a 'free society' is only going to work if everybody is perfect, if everybody is really good.' And they think that we're going to be like these dreamy-eyed, dewy-eyed, rainbow-afro'd lambs - baying around, chewing on the cuds of liberty...but the moment a wolf comes in, AHHHH, it's all over! The moment some bad guy comes along he's just going to take over all of society, and we're all just gonna go "baa-aa-aa-aa" and walk right back into the slaughterhouse.

        And nothing, really, could be further from the truth. The idea of a voluntary society, or a stateless society, or an anarchic society, is not idealistic. What is idealistic is a statist society - that is naive, and dangerous... because a statist society carries with it the assumption that you're going to create this incredible hierarchy, this blood-soaked pyramid - institutionalized hierarchical power - with the power to print money whenever it wants, the power to start wars, to incarcerate at-will, to create laws at-will, to bribe their friends and punish their enemies...and not ONE SINGLE evil guy is ever going to be interested in running that system. Never! You're only going to get really great guys at the top, and all the evil guys are going to be criminals in alleys, they're never going to be congressmen or presidents or prime ministers, or anything like that!

        It is the statist who is naive about human nature and the potential for evil. The anarchist, the voluntaryist, recognizes that human nature is corrupted by power - and to create a monolithic thing called "the state," with all of the powers that it has, is only gonna draw - like flies to shit, the most evil people to the top of that pyramid structure. And so, we cannot have a state because human nature is prone to wanting something for nothing, you know, 'the desire for the unearned is the root of all evil.' And so we recognize that you can't create this monster machine called "the state," and not end up with bad people driving it. The possibility of human evil is exactly why we can't have a state."

        https://plus.google.com/u/0/10541647...ts/RYafTsuNyPc

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Uncephalized View Post
          Not to mention that ALL land ownership by non-native peoples in the Americas was originally accomplished by violent submission and extermination of its de facto owners and has since merely been traded around enough times to give the practice a veneer of legitimacy.
          False, not ALL land ownership was forcibly removed from the Indians. The Indians actually traded a lot of their land for goods.

          The actual stealing of land from Indians was done by government (the same government that slaughtered Southerners in the Civil War), and not free people.

          Free people actually traded with the Indians.

          Personal property is what you can take with you when you move.
          No, personal property is what you can afford to protect. It does not include putting a gun to the heads of other people and stealing their money and using that stolen money to protect your property like is done today with government.

          Real estate is a holdover from a time when merely being allowed to live and work the land you were born on was a privilege granted by your lord, who had complete authority over your life and labor.
          Real estate comes from homesteading land. It's not some holdover from the times of Lords.

          The very notion that real property is automatically legally inherited by heirs is antithetical to a merit-based system of success--it props up a parasite class that need make no contribution whatever, to anyone, to be provided with an exorbitant lifestyle.
          Parasites are people who use guns to steal money from other people. If your parents voluntarily decide to give their money to their children when they die, then nobody uses any violence, no guns are used, and nobody is a parasite.

          You are simply filled with greed and envy.

          It's inconsistent special pleading to demand complete freedom from forceful authority while still enjoying the fruits of violence when it suits you.
          No Libertarian ever supports the use of violence for anything. If they do, then they are not Libertarian by definition. Or you are mistaken and think that a Libertarian supports violence when they actually do not and you are simply confused about what Libertarians actually support.

          EDIT: Actually Libertarians support the use of violence in self-defense. They are not pacifists.
          Last edited by Grok; 09-26-2012, 11:58 AM.

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          • #35
            Er, Grok I dig the whole primal thing, I really do, but if I'd rather live in a state with legal codes, monopoly on violence and infrastructure paid for by taxes any day of the week, instead of "screw you" Third World Libertopia.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Uncephalized View Post
              The very notion that real property is automatically legally inherited by heirs is antithetical to a merit-based system of success--it props up a parasite class that need make no contribution whatever, to anyone, to be provided with an exorbitant lifestyle.
              So instead, you think you should put a gun to the heirs and use violence against them to take the property which they inherited and use that money on yourself instead.

              ....right....

              and they are the parasites??

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Legbiter View Post
                Er, Grok I dig the whole primal thing, I really do, but if I'd rather live in a state with legal codes, monopoly on violence and infrastructure paid for by taxes any day of the week, instead of "screw you" Third World Libertopia.
                Ah of course.

                A monopoly based on free trade is bad, but a monopoly based on violence is good.

                Yes, becoming the richest country the world has ever seen is what I would label as "Third World".

                And clearly we need to use guns to build a road. I mean free people can build skyscrapers and planes and satellites, but we are just too dumb to build a road. Why we need those guys with the guns over there to steal a bunch of money from us to lay asphalt because we can't figure out how to do it ourselves without using violence.

                Oh and right, the government invented sanitation. We would just be a bunch of dirty pigs if it weren't for the government inventing sanitation for us. Oh and the government invented irrigation too, we'd all be starving to death if it weren't for government.

                Oh and government provides peace through war.

                Der. How could I have been so stupid? Herp-a-derp.

                I guess it's time to give up all this freedom and liberty crap and go back to being a banker slave and supporting violence against each other.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Legbiter View Post
                  instead of "screw you" Third World Libertopia.
                  Right, because deciding who I give charity to is a "screw you" attitude.

                  However, putting a gun to someone's head and stealing their money and calling that "charity" is perfectly normal and acceptable human behavior.

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                  • #39
                    Go found your Libertopia Grok. I'll move my hog farm/meth lab right next door to you. We'll be best buds, banding together to thwart our lands being raped and our womenfolk pillaged.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Legbiter View Post
                      Go found your Libertopia Grok. I'll move my hog farm/meth lab right next door to you. We'll be best buds, banding together to thwart our lands being raped and our womenfolk pillaged.
                      DEEP FREEZE: Iceland's Economic Collapse

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Legbiter View Post
                        Go found your Libertopia Grok. I'll move my hog farm/meth lab right next door to you. We'll be best buds, banding together to thwart our lands being raped and our womenfolk pillaged.
                        BTW, I probably wouldn't even notice the meth lab. It could actually increase property values.

                        As far as pollution goes, there are free market solutions to that. The flip side of the Libertarian coin is property rights.

                        So on one side you have non-aggression (except in self-defense), and on the other side is property rights.

                        Pollution from a pig farm falls under property rights, and in a free society, I should be able to sue you in a non-gun-based-monopolistic court system to protect my property from damage.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Grok View Post
                          So instead, you think you should put a gun to the heirs and use violence against them to take the property which they inherited and use that money on yourself instead.

                          ....right....

                          and they are the parasites??
                          I love how you are imputing a whole bunch of ideas and intentions to me that I never professed. I am claiming that hereditary or other claims to the perpetual and exclusive use of land and its resources may be illegitimate. I didn't make any claims about what system I thought should exist to replace the current paradigm allowing ownership of places, which I find inherently absurd.
                          Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

                          My Primal Journal

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                          • #43
                            Just try starting a pig farm in a free society where you start polluting all your neighbors property and start lowering the value of all your neighbors land.

                            You aren't going to be able to sell enough pigs to be able to afford to protect your farm from all of your angry neighbors.

                            The only reason giant pig farms exist today, polluting entire towns, is because they used government protection to protect their property.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Uncephalized View Post
                              I love how you are imputing a whole bunch of ideas and intentions to me that I never professed. I am claiming that hereditary or other claims to the perpetual and exclusive use of land and its resources may be illegitimate. I didn't make any claims about what system I thought should exist to replace the current paradigm allowing ownership of places, which I find inherently absurd.
                              So, if you don't think people should be free to decide what do with their property when they die, then what exactly do you think should happen?

                              The only alternative is to use force and violence against people to force them to do something against their will.

                              Is there some third option I am missing?!

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Grok View Post
                                Just try starting a pig farm in a free society where you start polluting all your neighbors property and start lowering the value of all your neighbors land.

                                You aren't going to be able to sell enough pigs to be able to afford to protect your farm from all of your angry neighbors.

                                The only reason giant pig farms exist today, polluting entire towns, is because they used government protection to protect their property.
                                Hmm... what will the angry neighbors do?

                                Used force and violence...
                                Band together to enforce rules against pig/meth farms in areas that they deem inappropriate...
                                And continue to use force and violence to make sure it stays that way.

                                Maybe make exceptions for a guy who pays them to be allowed to keep his pig farm open...

                                “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                                ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                                And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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