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Is there really a nutritional need for fruits and vegetables?

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  • #91
    Athrosclerosis and osteoperosis were found in the pre-western-diet inuit. They might have been doing better than the modern SAD diet with overconsumption of fried foods, refined carbs and sugar but they weren't the pinnacle of health some people hold them to. Their diet wasn't as low-carb as some people eat either as freshly killed meat contained carbohydrates from glycogen.
    Originally posted by SarahW View Post
    Lol, maybe we should apply science to this quandary - what essential nutrients are in vegetables/fruit that are not in any edible animal parts?

    I know plants can't give us b12, and can't give us o3 very well. But what can plants uniquely give us? Can you get antioxidants or vit c from animals? (Yes, I know the inuit did get some vit c from animals, but I don't see raw adrenalin glands being sold at WF, and I don't know if the amount they ate produced optimal health.)
    Yes. There's more to health than just the essentials. Meat isn't essential but it contains beneficial nutrients not found in significant amounts in other foods like creatine, carnitine and carnosine, pre-formed vitamin A, etc. Just like plant foods contain significant health promoting nutrients not found in animal products.
    Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 09-25-2012, 04:06 PM.

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    • #92
      your an idiot, meat contains carbs in the corm of triglycerides. and milk proctects from those diseases
      Paleo since November 2011 - Carnivore since June 2012
      Before and after pics
      http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65846.html
      Primal Sucess Story
      http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65400.html
      Primal Journal
      http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...tml#post955444

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      • #93
        Originally posted by BennettC View Post
        your an idiot, meat contains carbs in the corm of triglycerides. and milk proctects from those diseases
        If you're going to call someone an idiot, try to make sure you have some idea what the hell you are talking about. Triglycerides are fats. He is correct that glycogen is the form of carbohydrate found in muscle (and liver) tissue. And where the fuck did you get this "fact" that milk makes you resistant to heart disease and osteoporosis? You do know that there's a hell of a lot more to maintaining healthy bones than calcium intake, right?
        Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

        My Primal Journal

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        • #94
          I know Matt Stone has made the claim for high levels of carbs in meat but I am trying to find the data. Does anyone have a link?
          Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
          PS
          Don't forget to play!

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          • #95
            Originally posted by BennettC View Post
            your an idiot, meat contains carbs in the corm of triglycerides. and milk proctects from those diseases
            you're a cocky little guy, aint ya? annoying.

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            • #96
              I'll look for the study I read on analysis of glycogen content. It remember it varied at lot depending on the species of animal, how it was killed, what it's diet was like, when it last ate, what cut of meat and how long ago it was killed. It's sure to be significantly different from the meat eaten by those on those zero-carb forums and made a significant carb difference among those eating a high meat diet.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Betorq View Post
                In Venezuela, for breakfast, we'd have scrambled brains with eggs. (Yes I know, ...scrambled brains...) These were monkey brains, a little too close for comfort for a 12 year old boy... but I did eat them, as well as the menudo & other spare parts. Menudo stank to high heaven! My favorite food there was the shark empanadas & arepas, lived on those most of my summer in Venezuela. Unless someone is regularly dining on organs of wild or organically raised animals, in my opinion, including "some" veggies in one's diet, is not an unreasonable option. I personally would not be happy cutting out small or big ass salads & fruit, both of which I already eat sparingly at this point in my journey. As many of you already know, I'm seriously into fermenting foods & veggies (I even teach classes on fermentation). They are much more digestible after undergoing fermentation, same with dairy & fruit juices, reducing their carb & sugar load & upping their probiotic, enzymatic & fatty acid profiles. For me personally, I enjoy eating them, I digest & process them well, & in my view of things, they are important parts of my total package. And like Owly said, and I second it, "I never met a vegetable I didn't like."
                Wow, I'd like to try that for breakfast sometime! I thought brain was just okay when I tried it; just tasted like a load of fat. Eggs would be a nice addition.

                Not a fan of shark. People say it's good, but I've tried the fin and the body, and none are of large appeal.

                I think you're on to something there with the gut flora. I've recently discovered Chris Kresser and am going to great lengths to get some fermented vegetables in my diet, while reducing the amount of regular vegetables. I'm feeling a lot better now that I don't have to stuff a ridiculous amount of vegetables in every day.
                My chocolatey Primal journey

                Unusual food recipes (plus chocolate) blog

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by jakey View Post
                  you're a cocky little guy, aint ya? annoying.
                  not cocky, confident
                  Paleo since November 2011 - Carnivore since June 2012
                  Before and after pics
                  http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65846.html
                  Primal Sucess Story
                  http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65400.html
                  Primal Journal
                  http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...tml#post955444

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by SarahW View Post
                    Lol, maybe we should apply science to this quandary - what essential nutrients are in vegetables/fruit that are not in any edible animal parts?

                    I know plants can't give us b12, and can't give us o3 very well. But what can plants uniquely give us? Can you get antioxidants or vit c from animals? (Yes, I know the inuit did get some vit c from animals, but I don't see raw adrenalin glands being sold at WF, and I don't know if the amount they ate produced optimal health.)
                    I believe that thinking of food in this way is somewhat dangerous. Food is more than just vitamins and minerals. First, it's very possible that scientists still don't have a complete picture of every essential vitamin and mineral, and in what amounts we need them.

                    Second, if vitamins and mineral and basic calories were all that were required to thrive, you could argue that someone could eat a diet of pure sugar or pure fat with a multivitamin. We all know that this kind of regimen wouldn't produce optimal health. But as to why, I don't think we have the answers.

                    We will probably never fully understand the complex nutrtional interplay that happens when we eat real, whole foods.

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                    • Originally posted by BestBetter View Post
                      I believe that thinking of food in this way is somewhat dangerous. Food is more than just vitamins and minerals. First, it's very possible that scientists still don't have a complete picture of every essential vitamin and mineral, and in what amounts we need them.

                      Second, if vitamins and mineral and basic calories were all that were required to thrive, you could argue that someone could eat a diet of pure sugar or pure fat with a multivitamin. We all know that this kind of regimen wouldn't produce optimal health. But as to why, I don't think we have the answers.

                      We will probably never fully understand the complex nutrtional interplay that happens when we eat real, whole foods.
                      Western thinkers tend to be analytical, reductionist & quantifiably oriented. Just give them numbers, statistics, charts & diagrams, & they're content.

                      In the East, traditionally, observed energetic subtleties, quality of life & energetic effects of foods & the environment on human health are(were) more the emphasis. Hence the origins, development & refinement of systems of health & wellbeing such as Ayurveda from India & TCM from China, cumulatively over thousands of years. Even our western model of medicine and science is/was fundamentally informed by exchange of goods & knowledge via the Silk Roads trading routes.

                      Ayurveda & TCM both categorize foods according to their inherent natures: warming/cooling/neutral, moisturizing/drying, building/cleansing, etc. And they observed for hundreds or even thousands of years, they did not have laboratories nor did they cut up corpses to learn anatomy & physiology. They learnt thru palpation, observation of their own experiments on themselves, & by observing & studying others in their societies, study of past medical treatisies, & their own meditation & health building practices gave them insights as well .

                      If you want to know more about food effects from a non-linear perspective, if you're so inclined, you could check out these resources to start with:

                      1. [PDF] Traditional Chinese Medicine Medicated Diet - TCM Diet

                        tcmdiet.com/resources/tcmdietgroupebook.pdf
                        File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
                        3. Medicated Diet Principles. Understanding the Nature of Food according to Chinese Medicine Theory. Classification of Food. Chinese medicated diet differs in ...

                      2. Traditional Chinese Medicine :: Food Therapy - Ibiblio

                        www.ibiblio.org/chineseculture/contents/heal/p-heal-c01s09.html
                        Jump to Cantonese Classification of Food‎: Cantonese people pay much attention to the body's reaction to food. Food items are classified ...

                      1. Ayurveda - Classification of Food, Herbs & Spices, Taste, Heating or ...

                        www.holistic-online.com/ayurveda/ayv-food-Herbs-classification.htm
                        15+ items – Classification of Food: Meat. Information on the following Herbs ...
                        Anise Seed Pungent Pungent Light, Promotes Digestion ...
                        Clove Pungent Pungent Promotes Digestion. Improves taste ...
                      2. Transform your Health with Ayurveda

                        www.jiva.com/ayurveda/about-ayurveda/101.html
                        People desiring to follow an Ayurvedic lifestyle should include some elements from each of these categories. The Six Tastes The six tastes In Ayurveda, food is ...

                      3. Ayurvedic Food Categories - Alive and Healthy Institute

                        www.aliveandhealthy.com/Mood-Food.html
                        Alive and Healthy Institute provides information about the ayurvedic food categories: Tamasic, Rajasic, and Sattvic to assist with healthy food education in Dallas ...

                      4. Ayurvedic Diet - Eating for Balance: Choosing Foods

                        www.pioneerthinking.com › Mind and BodyHealthy Body
                        Feb 22, 2004 – A third ayurvedic classification of foods is by the effect they have on the non- physical aspects of the physiology--mind, heart, senses and spirit.
                      Last edited by Betorq; 09-26-2012, 02:29 AM.
                      "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
                      "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
                      "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

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                      • Originally posted by BestBetter View Post
                        I believe that thinking of food in this way is somewhat dangerous. Food is more than just vitamins and minerals. First, it's very possible that scientists still don't have a complete picture of every essential vitamin and mineral, and in what amounts we need them.

                        Second, if vitamins and mineral and basic calories were all that were required to thrive, you could argue that someone could eat a diet of pure sugar or pure fat with a multivitamin. We all know that this kind of regimen wouldn't produce optimal health. But as to why, I don't think we have the answers.

                        We will probably never fully understand the complex nutrtional interplay that happens when we eat real, whole foods.
                        Agreed. Nutritional science is really only in it's infancy, there's new nutritional compounds being discovered all the time. The synergy created by whole foods isn't even close to being replicated by complete enteral nutrition forumulas and I doubt It will be for a very long time. Anti-oxidant supplements also haven't even come close to replicating the benefits found in whole foods.
                        Marks advice is a good bet, eating a wide array of different colored fruits and vegetables.
                        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/why-y...#axzz27WV1v42C
                        Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 09-26-2012, 03:16 AM.

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                        • what sucks is mostly all studies have been done on man as a carbohydrate eater
                          Paleo since November 2011 - Carnivore since June 2012
                          Before and after pics
                          http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65846.html
                          Primal Sucess Story
                          http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65400.html
                          Primal Journal
                          http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...tml#post955444

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SarahW View Post
                            I think I read somewhere recently that sauerkraut was a more effective cure for scurvy, with the added bonus that the barrels would get better with time on a rocking boat. Nourishing Traditions, maybe? (I've read a lot of books recently, sorry).



                            Incidentally, if the rum was truly raw, I think that mixture would ferment over time as well.

                            So, yeah, can we please argue about fermented fruits and vegetables next? Thank you.
                            Just to dredge up some ancient thread history... rum is a distilled spirit, so it would not cause any fermentation. In fact, as long as it was at least 20-ish percent alcohol content (rum by itself is usually around 40), the solution would be completely sterile, and prevent any further fermentation of the sugars. The fermentation that creates fermented foods like sauerkraut is caused by bacteria that convert sugars to lactic acid, like lactobacillus (yogurt) or leuconostoc (sauerkraut), while the fermentation that creates things like wine and beer is caused by a yeast, saccharomyces, which converts sugars into ethanol.

                            Also, to comment on the thread itself, there have been some really great rebuttals to the idea that fruits an vegetables are unnecessary. Just because the Inuit manage to exist in an environment where there are minimal fruits and vegetables, does not mean that we should hold them up as the epitome of human diet. Furthermore, the Inuit actually do consume a wide variety of the plants that do exist, as listed in this handy field guide to edible plants, written by members of the Inuit people- Plants That We Eat: Nauriat Niginaqtaut - From the traditional wisdom of the Inupiat Elders of Northwest Alaska: Anore Jones: 9781602230743: Amazon.com: Books

                            I think far more telling than the fact that some people thrive in an environment that does not supply huge amounts of plant matter is the fact that cultures that *do* live in an environment with readily available plants eat them regularly, and are tightly bound to them through tradition and ritual (as documented in this incredibly dry and boring text I had to read for an ethnobotany class in school- Ethnobotany: A Reader: Paul E. Minnis: 9780806131801: Amazon.com: Books).
                            "Itís not about how strong you are, itís how well you can move with that strength."

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                            • Originally posted by BennettC View Post
                              Apparently they aren't "essential" if all these civilizations survived on just meat. I still have my raw milk so I can maintain my calcium though
                              Okay, even if that is true (I doubt it)... they did it by eating raw adrenalin glands. If you feel like sourcing and eating some of that - be my guest.

                              rum is a distilled spirit, so it would not cause any fermentation.
                              For some reason I thought making rum was like making beer - it needs to be "stopped" at some point, otherwise the process would just continue ad infinitum. My knowledge of brewing, and pre-modern brewing, is pretty rudimentary, sorry.

                              ----

                              Incidentally, I was just reading one of Nina Plack's books and she mentions studies that shows that non-heme iron from plants have a very low absorption rate, but if you eat non-heme iron in conjunction with a heme iron source, the absorption rate of non-heme skyrockets. So you should eat your spinach with beef, and you will get much more iron than if you just ate the beef by itself. So it seems the Irish were very wise to eat vegetables as a "condiment" with their meals.

                              Given that vegetables are generally low in calories, this may be a good way for people who can't eat many calories in a day (like women, other smaller-bodied people, and etc.) to get all their nutrition without overloading their systems. Just sayin' it's easy for my husband to meet 100+% RDA according to FitDay, but as I only eat half as much food as him I do have to make sure the calories I eat provide enough (absorb-able) nutrition.

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                              • This is btw MDA(Mark's Daily APPLE!) that more or less, we all ascribe to....

                                Read more:
                                Apple Pectin Benefits | LIVESTRONG.COM

                                Read more:
                                http://www.livestrong.com/article/11...#ixzz27lI86Kyc

                                3 Comments

                                May 1, 2011 | By Traci Vandermark

                                Pectin is a type of fiber that is found in all plant cell walls and tissues. While all may contain pectin, the amount and concentration of pectin varies among plants. Apples contain a particularly high amount of pectin, according to dietaryfiberfood.com, and the highly concentrated apple pectin delivers many health benefits. Apple pectin is available in the skin and pulp of fresh apples or as a dietary supplement.

                                Supplies Soluble Fiber


                                Soluble fiber is fiber that can disperse or spread in water. For example, if you leave oatmeal, a good source of soluble fiber, in water too long, you will see a gel type substance form in the water. Apple pectin is a rich source of soluble fiber, which plays an important role in the prevention and treatment of disease. The American Heart Association reports that adding soluble fiber to your diet will reduce your risk of heart disease and can reduce your bad cholesterol levels more than following a low-fat diet alone can. Soluble fiber works to lower cholesterol by reducing the amount of it that is absorbed in the intestines, according to the Mayo Clinic.

                                Protects Against Metabolic Syndrome

                                Metabolic syndrome is a term that is given to a group of risk factors that contribute to heart disease, stroke and high blood sugar. Risk factors, listed by the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute, are high blood pressure, high blood sugar, high triglycerides, high cholesterol levels and a large waist circumference. Researchers at the Complutense University in Madrid, Spain, found that when rats with the equivalent of human metabolic syndrome were fed diets that contained apple pectin, they experienced a reduction in blood sugar levels, total cholesterol levels, triglyceride levels and weight. A reduction in one or all of these factors will contribute to a reduction in high blood pressure as well. The study, published in the May 2008 issue of the "Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry," calls the difference in the pectin groups cholesterol profile "remarkable" and suggests that apple pectin may one day be considered as a treatment for metabolic syndrome.

                                Improves Intestinal Environment


                                A healthy intestinal tract contains both good and bad bacteria, with the optimal situation being where the good bacteria far outnumber the bad. The job of intestinal bacteria is to help us digest food, absorb nutrients and keep viruses and bad bacteria in check. The March 19, 2010, issue of "Anaerobe" reports a study in which subjects' bacterial content in fecal matter was checked at the beginning of the trial period and then again at the end. The trial involved the subjects eating two apples per day for two weeks. At the end of two weeks, tests showed that the content of bad bacteria in fecal matter had decreased, while the levels of good bacteria had increased. The researchers, from Nippon Veterinary and Life Science University in Tokyo, concluded that increasing apple intake improves the intestinal environment and that it is the apple pectin in particular that helps do the job.

                                References





                                2) Nancy Dell: Ashwagandha for stress; gluten-free flours; apple peels benefits | WWLP.com


                                3. How beneficial are the peel on an apple?
                                Liam, Internet


                                The peel of an apple contains at least a dozen antioxidants that reduce your risk of cancer.

                                Plus research shows that peels on many fruits and vegetables have ursolic acid, a compound that can cut your risk of obesity.

                                Do wash them well and try to buy organically grown apples since they are on the list of higher pesticide foods.
                                Last edited by Betorq; 09-28-2012, 04:23 AM.
                                "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
                                "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
                                "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

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