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Is there really a nutritional need for fruits and vegetables?

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  • #76
    Originally posted by SarahW View Post
    Squashes are great. Absolutely great.
    they are now a part of every day life for me, as opposed to once in a while as they were before.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by SarahW View Post
      Well, the Sami aren't technically Europeans as we usually think of that ethnicity. Though, while they originated in Eastern Europe and Asia, so did the Celts, but it seems the Sami migrated to northern Europe first (I think).

      This has interesting info about Sami diet: Lifestyle, Genetics, and Disease in Sami . It seems the researchers are a bit confused about the paradox between their diet and their health, lol.

      While the Sami are still the only active hunter-gatherer group in Scandinavia, "regular" Scandinavians still eat lots of fish and reindeer meat. I once knew a 3-yo Swedish-American girl whose favorite breakfast (and snack, and lunch, and dinner) was "yellow fish" (aka pickled mustard herring), straight from the jar. Cheese fermented until it is completely black is also still common, and that is also served for breakfast.

      Even leaving aside the Scandinavians, the pre-potato and pre-widespread-wheat diet of the British Isles was heavy on seafood, seaweed, pig's head (just pickle it and then pour Guinness over it is how it is still eaten today in some parts of Ireland), and various blood puddings and blood sausage. And of course beef and dairy. Vegetables were considered condiments (Food In Ancient Ireland). Important to note that the Irish used to be considered fierce warriors, it was only after the potato took over that overall health declined.
      Clubs Chaco Taco over his potato-stuffed head...with a stuffed potato (sour creme, butter, bacon & chives)!

      Originally posted by SarahW View Post
      So yeah, no need to try to emulate exotic tribes living in a radially different environment. I made fish "fajitas" last night with lots of tilapia and lots of bell peppers with some raw cheddar and avocado over it - that ain't Irish or Eskimo (or anyone else) food. But I thought it was yummy and I'm pretty sure that it was plenty nutritious, more because of the tilapia and cheese than the peppers, but the peppers made it look and taste better.
      Blechh! I rail against farmed tilapia whenever the subject comes up. Least healthy expensive fish I can think of. Catfish is better than that stuff, imo.

      The only wild/semi-wild tilapia I've ever encountered was swimming in a Big Island lake outside of Pahoa, called "Green Lake" which was really just a collapsed & inverted ancient volcano dome. The tilapia were nipping on my toes while skinny dipping with friends. Good thing they were interesting in my tender bits as I was vulnerable in the middle of that lake. (They musta been introduced by someone sometime, thats why I said semi-wild. As how could they be there otherwise? They didn't hike in like we did).

      But hey, more power to ya, SarahW. If you like/love your tilapia, I'm glad someone here on MDA defends that fishie & enjoys it.
      You can have my tilapia portion @ our next clam bake...
      Last edited by Betorq; 09-24-2012, 02:12 PM.
      "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
      "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
      "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Betorq View Post
        But hey, more power to ya, SarahW. If you like/love your tilapia, I'm glad someone here on MDA defends that fishie & enjoys it.
        You can have my tilapia portion @ our next clam bake...
        Okay!

        I don't much like tilapia, but my husband does, but that's because he doesn't care for fish, and tilapia, imo, tastes like chewy air.

        From what little I've read, tilapia is the only farmed fish that might actually be healthy by the time it is filleted. And it's low in mercury. And I got it on sale.

        I actually prefer mahi mahi in my fish tacos, but that is usually more expensive than my sale-tilapia, and there are huge issues with mislabeling around here, and no other fish can pretend to be chewy air.

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        • #79
          My worry is that we won't/don't eat enough variety in our diets to make up for what we get from fruit or vegetable. A conscious effort can probably can get it done.

          It isn't going to work to eat only rib eye steak, eggs and butter. At least I don't think so (over time).

          Wouldn't a true caveperson have gone back and forth between meat and plant diets based on availability? Modern humans have ruined their guts. Functioning optimally, we should be able to tolerate plant matter and animal matter and it would be beneficial to have both.
          sigpic
          Age 48
          Start date: 7-5-12
          5'3"
          121lbs
          GOAL: to live to be a healthy and active 100


          "In health there is freedom. Health is the first of all liberties."
          Henri Frederic Amiel

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          • #80
            Originally posted by PHaselow View Post
            My worry is that we won't/don't eat enough variety in our diets to make up for what we get from fruit or vegetable. A conscious effort can probably can get it done.

            It isn't going to work to eat only rib eye steak, eggs and butter. At least I don't think so (over time).

            Wouldn't a true caveperson have gone back and forth between meat and plant diets based on availability? Modern humans have ruined their guts. Functioning optimally, we should be able to tolerate plant matter and animal matter and it would be beneficial to have both.
            We modern people have SO MUCH MORE variety than primitive humans, who pretty much ate the same stuff most of the time, finding a honeybee's hive was a major event, a cause for tribal celebration. Same with other calorific treats that we take for granted, like butter by the lb or kilo or coconut oil in a bottle or a 5 gallon bucket, easily obtained in whatever quantities we can afford to buy & store from our local grocer, farmer's market or CSA or online.
            Last edited by Betorq; 09-24-2012, 03:36 PM.
            "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
            "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
            "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Betorq View Post
              We modern people have SO MUCH MORE variety than primitive humans, who pretty much ate the same stuff most of the time, finding a honeybee's hive was a major event, a cause for tribal celebration. Same with other calorific treats that we take for granted, like butter by the lb or kilo or coconut oil in a bottle or a 5 gallon bucket, easily obtained in whatever quantities we can afford to buy & store from our local grocer, farmer's market or CSA or online.
              So true. We have variety to excess. My point was more that a person who restricts themselves entirely to animal matter won't take advantage of the variety (brains, kidneys, other offal) or understand the need to eat with thought to get the total package of nutrients.

              I'm sure this has been addressed like crazy on MDA. Time to take a look. As you can see, being a "Senior Member" has nothing to do with my knowledge base. I'm not giving up my veggies any time soon. Winter squash is here and I'm in heaven.
              sigpic
              Age 48
              Start date: 7-5-12
              5'3"
              121lbs
              GOAL: to live to be a healthy and active 100


              "In health there is freedom. Health is the first of all liberties."
              Henri Frederic Amiel

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by PHaselow View Post
                So true. We have variety to excess. My point was more that a person who restricts themselves entirely to animal matter won't take advantage of the variety (brains, kidneys, other offal) or understand the need to eat with thought to get the total package of nutrients.
                Exactly. You can be very healthy on a diet like the traditional diets of northern peoples, but you can't expect to see the same effects from a diet of steak and butter. There is more to health than macronutrient ratios.
                “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                Owly's Journal

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                • #83
                  Not that steak and butter don't have their place. Both are foods near and dear to my heart.
                  “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                  Owly's Journal

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                  • #84
                    If offal, liver, sweetbreads, raw milk etc were as accessible as fruits and veg I would be eating them for my nutrients; the closest I get is liver about twice a year.
                    ad astra per aspera

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                    • #85
                      There isn't a nutrition "need" for any group of foods. However you aren't going to find good sources of soluble fibre, anti oxidants (though I realise the research on them isn't concrete) and various vitamins and minerals in other sources of food, as much as in vegetables.
                      http://lifemutt.blogspot.sg/ - Gaming, Food Reviews and Life in Singapore

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Betorq View Post
                        From the notes of that YouTube video: "In this video Dr. Greg Ellis goes over the Paleolithic Diet and gives his opinion on the subject. He starts by talking about how ancient man use to eat and how the vitamin myth has changed how people eat."

                        To be fair, I found this too: "Dr. Greg Ellis is the number one authority on weight control and nutrition. Through forty years of scientific research Dr. Ellis has found the answer to why so many Americans are over weight. It's simple and to gain a clear understanding of what the cause is, a shift in thinking is required. The reason why so many Americans are overweight is due to misinformation and myths about the foods we should eat and why.I will show you how to lose the weight you want and at the same time gain LEAN MUSCLE TISSUE without all the fake, over marketed supplements out there today!"

                        Who ranked Dr Greg as #1 or is this more opinion/hyperbole from Byebyecarbs??

                        I think Dr Greg is without any doubt a LOT smarter & more knowlegeable & experienced than I am @ paleo nutrition & fitness training & weight loss with his clients than I am with mine. But I disagree, in part, with some of his specific opinions & assertions on this particular subject.

                        I have just recently advocated a 100% carb free ketotic 3 week phase to a potential client who was seriously a vegan carb/sugar addict. So I do believe the efficacy of VLC or even periods of NO carbs. I know some hard core paleos do well on long term 100% meat & fat diets. For them, it's quite healing. But many people do not do well eating that way, for a multitude of reasons. In fact, many people suffer & have health issues, both physical & emotional, from attempting to do so, because their ego or their dogma tells them its the superior way - the way our paleo ancestors lived. Truthfully, there is no single model for paleo man's diet, the terrain & circumstances were too diverse for anyone to definitively say one way is factually how ancient men & women ate. That's another point too, that women's metabolisms & brains developed & evolved quite differently than men. This we can all agree on, yes?

                        I personally believe that for the average peson, who is not attempting to use ketosis to treat their disease such as epilepsy or a metabolic syndrome such as hyper- or hypo-thyrodism, alternating between deep ketotic states & mild re-charges is optimal & allows for the spirit of Mark's 80/20 concept to come into play, with beneficial effects.

                        I love ketosis, but I love dark chocolate truffles & berry/banana smoothies too. Have enjoyed both of them this month...
                        We DO NOT PRODUCE CELLULASE, AND THUS CANNOT DIGEST CELLULOSE (indigestible fiber that ruminants CAN break down by enzymatic and bacterial action, coupled with a thorough pulverizing by multiple chewings).

                        FULL STOP.

                        Thanks for playing.
                        Peak weight on Standard American Diet: 316.8 lbs
                        Initial Weight When Starting Primal: 275 lbs
                        Current weight: 210.8 lbs
                        Goal weight: 220 lbs (or less): MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

                        The way "ChooseMyPlate.gov" should have looked:
                        ChooseMyPlate

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                        • #87
                          I haven't actually read the book by Weston A Price... wish I could remember the title... but I recall reading an article about the Inuit that said they had significant evidence of osteoporosis at fairly young ages. Also, the article noted that the Inuit seem to prize the vegetables and fruit they can get ahold of. So I think produce really is very important.
                          Out of context quote for the day:

                          Clearly Gorbag is so awesome he should be cloned, reproducing in the normal manner would only dilute his awesomeness. - Urban Forager

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                          • #88
                            nonsense!
                            Paleo since November 2011 - Carnivore since June 2012
                            Before and after pics
                            http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65846.html
                            Primal Sucess Story
                            http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65400.html
                            Primal Journal
                            http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...tml#post955444

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                            • #89
                              Lol, maybe we should apply science to this quandary - what essential nutrients are in vegetables/fruit that are not in any edible animal parts?

                              I know plants can't give us b12, and can't give us o3 very well. But what can plants uniquely give us? Can you get antioxidants or vit c from animals? (Yes, I know the inuit did get some vit c from animals, but I don't see raw adrenalin glands being sold at WF, and I don't know if the amount they ate produced optimal health.)

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                              • #90
                                Apparently they aren't "essential" if all these civilizations survived on just meat. I still have my raw milk so I can maintain my calcium though
                                Paleo since November 2011 - Carnivore since June 2012
                                Before and after pics
                                http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65846.html
                                Primal Sucess Story
                                http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65400.html
                                Primal Journal
                                http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...tml#post955444

                                Comment

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