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Urologist is anti Primal. What shall I do?

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  • Urologist is anti Primal. What shall I do?

    So it's been quite awhile since I've posted on here, and I have no good reason why. Long story short, I get kidney stones. A lot. In the past 9 years I've had roughly 13 stones, the last being 1.2cm and needing laser lithotripsy to remove.

    After my surgery, the doctor told me to eat as little animal protein as possible, especially red meat. He also recommended drinking enough fluids to produce 2 liters of urine per day, 8 oz of those fluids being lemonade or some other fruit juice with citric acid. My primary care doctor also said to drink enough fluids to produce 2 liters of urine daily as well, stating that several studies showed this was the single most effective way to reduce the chances of a future stone.

    My question is how do I convert back to primal when everything my doctors are telling me goes against what Mark encourages. My wife and I never felt better than while we were primal(although it was only about a month), but my stones generally take at least 6 months to pass once the first pain is felt, and that is not something I want to deal with if I can avoid it.

    I know this topic has been raised in the past, but none of the threads I found specifically had doctors orders to avoid red meat and drink lemonade.

    Any help would be tremendously appreciated.

  • #2
    I thought just eating enough alkaline foods was generally enough to prevent the most common stones. But, what are your stones made of? Oxalate stones will need different efforts than calcium - or whatever the common ones are. But, keep digging online. There are a lot of dietary approaches that have been successful for many people!
    Crohn's, doing SCD

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    • #3
      Sorry I forgot to add that my stones are made of calcium oxalate.

      Comment


      • #4
        Isn't that associated with green tea and leafy green consumption?
        Crohn's, doing SCD

        Comment


        • #5
          It depends on who you ask, really. There is so much conflicting information available anymore that I don't even know where to look. I never drank green tea before my stones became apparent, and for the most part stayed away from spinach as well. I do know that they are genetic and everyone in my mom's family gets them more frequently than I do.

          I just wonder how much of my doctor's advice is cultural. He is Indian and I know that some of the hold the cow sacred. When I asked him about other animal proteins like turkey, fish, chicken, etc. he said that he doesn't see a problem with those.

          He did advise me to avoid spinach and tea, but said coffee was OK.

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          • #6
            I have had a couple of kidney stones. My understanding is that the evidence is quite inconclusive for any dietary restrictions being useful. My nephrologist told me she doesn't find any diets help her patients. I have seen pretty good data that ketosis can cause kidney stones. Those diets were not primal though. But kids on a ketotic diet do get a lot of stones. So perhaps stay out of ketosis and stay hydrated.

            I have read some theories the vitamin K2 might help so I take that with my vitamin D3.

            Also, have you had your calcium levels and parathyroid levels checked?
            Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

            http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

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            • #7
              Don't discuss your diet with your doctor. If he insists on it, then lie. It's not that hard . Most doctors haven't done a great deal of nutrition training, and those that HAVE have been trained using CW, which is clearly not primal. I honestly think your best bet is to just tell them you're doing all the stuff that they say you have to do, regardless of whether or not you are.

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              • #8
                I'm not entirely sure what all he checked, but I had to do a 24 hour urine collection to check protein and calcium levels and everything came back normal. I haven't had any pain or signs of a stone since my surgery, so I am almost wondering if I just had one giant stone and small pieces just kept breaking off. My wife and I are preparing(biggest reason we failed last time was lack of preparation/planning) for primal again and I will give it some time to see if any stones develop. I have an ultrasound/follow up in October, which will give me an idea where I am starting.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by ChrisandJess View Post
                  I just wonder how much of my doctor's advice is cultural. He is Indian and I know that some of the hold the cow sacred. When I asked him about other animal proteins like turkey, fish, chicken, etc. he said that he doesn't see a problem with those.
                  It seems to me unlikely that he's trying to steer you away from beef on that reason, and you did say he said "red meat" which is a more general term.

                  I'm not going to tell you to disregard a doctor's advice, and I should think few people here would. But I think a doctor owes it to his patient to explain to him what his reasoning is. What does he say if you ask him why eating read meat causes calcium oxalate kidney stones? If he can't give you a reasonable explanation I would wonder why he's offering that advice. If it's just general dietary advice why's it got entangled with advice on this specific problem?

                  If you're really not satisfied that he's giving you the right advice, I'd get an opinion from another doctor.

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                  • #10
                    I'm Primal and I also follow Low Oxalate dietary rules due to the fact that I'm on two medications that are known to cause CalOx stones. One of them is basically a guarantee for them, but I haven't had one yet... and I aim to keep it that way if possible.

                    Yes coffee is fine.
                    Tea however is not.

                    According to Low Oxalate rules there is no issue with beef or red meats.
                    Many of the high ox foods are already prohibited just by being 'primal' such as "whole grains and legumes".
                    But doing a full on Low Oxalate diet is pretty darn restrictive where vegetables and starches are concerned.
                    If you are interested I can give you more information.
                    For ME, it isn't hard... I have had some very serious medical conditions (that are now healing) over the past year+, so I'm doing this because it's simply what I think is best for my body.
                    But I first transitioned to Primal, very low sodium/no added salt, and then Low Oxalates.
                    It seemed overwhelming when I was reading all of the things I "couldn't" eat, VERY long lists,... then I just did it, and it was much easier than I thought.

                    I drink from 1-2 gallons of water a day, with a dash of key lime juice(lemon is preferred, I just like the taste of lime better) in every glass daily to keep things flowing clear.
                    I take potassium citrate morning and evening.
                    (My meds dehydrate me so that is one reason for the huge amount of water and the potassium... I get depleted easily and get potassium depletion symptoms.)
                    I occasionally add a glass of orange juice because it's supposed to be good. But I'm not fond of the sweetness.
                    I take a small dose of Magnesium citrate in the evening...
                    I take about 500mg of calcium citrate before consuming a meal that is higher in oxalates than I'd like. Cal citrate taken prior to a meal that has a bit higher oxalates is supposed to help bind them and make them unavailable in the gut. *shrug* It's worth a try.
                    I take a B6 supplement as that has been shown to reduce the instance of kidney stones, 50mg/day in a divided dose.

                    (Notice that my supplements almost all come in 'citrate' form... yep... keeping those kidneys clean as much as possible.)
                    I drink one coffee a day, in the morning, followed by lots of water. The caffeine triggers the kidneys to get to work... rinse, rinse, rinse.
                    I don't eat until dinner.
                    So all day... just water with lime.
                    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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                    • #11
                      He wants you to drink lemonade? Sugar/fructose causes stones https://www.google.com/search?q=fruc...ient=firefox-a

                      Dr. Richard Johnson is the chief of the division of renal health and hypertension at the University of Colorado
                      . Maybe email him with your question. He just released his new book "The Fat Switch" It's an excellent read for paleo/primal dieters in that he describes how fructose (and fructans) found in fruit (and wheat) flips a biochemical switch that caused our ancestors to put on weight in preparation for their lean winter months. Now were eating sugar/fructose year round and it's causing the obesity epidemic.

                      Do Low-Carb Diets Increase Kidney Stone Risk? Let’s Ask The Low-Carb Experts
                      Jimmy Moore quotes different doctors about halfway down the page, one of which is Johnson.
                      Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

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                      • #12
                        I am currently trying to pass my 3rd kidney stone, so I've also been doing a lot of research about what to eat/what not to eat. The information is so conflicting that the only thing I really believe is 100% true is that drinking water is helpful.

                        I also keep reading that animal proteins can contribute to kidney stones, but I am not sure whether that is true in my case. I was vegan for the last 12 years until May of this year. This is my third kidney stone in as many years, so this is my first one while eating meat. So, obviously, not eating meat didn't prevent my prior two stones! One interesting fact, the last two times I had kidney stones, I was in the hospital with a morphine drip because the pain was so bad. This time, I just feel ill, have a bit of a back ache, and massive hematuria. So overall, this one is a better experience, which I have to wonder is somehow related to my recent change in diet? I honestly don't know.

                        The nurse in the hospital this weekend told me to drink grapefruit juice, so I dutifully choked down an entire grapefruit when I got home (I'm not going to drink sugary juice). Then I looked it up online and found compelling evidence that grapefruit juice can actually increase the risk of kidney stones.

                        It is so frustrating to know what is true, and you can't always believe what your medical professionals tell you. Not that they intentionally steer you wrong, but there is so much out there in the way of misinformation and wivestales. I think you just have to figure out what works for you.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ChrisandJess View Post
                          So it's been quite awhile since I've posted on here, and I have no good reason why. Long story short, I get kidney stones. A lot. In the past 9 years I've had roughly 13 stones, the last being 1.2cm and needing laser lithotripsy to remove.

                          After my surgery, the doctor told me to eat as little animal protein as possible, especially red meat. He also recommended drinking enough fluids to produce 2 liters of urine per day, 8 oz of those fluids being lemonade or some other fruit juice with citric acid. My primary care doctor also said to drink enough fluids to produce 2 liters of urine daily as well, stating that several studies showed this was the single most effective way to reduce the chances of a future stone.

                          My question is how do I convert back to primal when everything my doctors are telling me goes against what Mark encourages. My wife and I never felt better than while we were primal(although it was only about a month), but my stones generally take at least 6 months to pass once the first pain is felt, and that is not something I want to deal with if I can avoid it.

                          I know this topic has been raised in the past, but none of the threads I found specifically had doctors orders to avoid red meat and drink lemonade.

                          Any help would be tremendously appreciated.
                          Were your stones sent to the lab? Do they know what type of stones you are dealing with? Calcium oxalate, uric acid, calcium phosphate, etc. That could help you decide how to proceed.

                          Take a look at the Low Oxalate Diet. Keep your gut in tip-top shape (probiotics!) and maybe change the type of protein you are eating and not merely the quantity?
                          sigpic
                          Age 48
                          Start date: 7-5-12
                          5'3"
                          121lbs
                          GOAL: to live to be a healthy and active 100


                          "In health there is freedom. Health is the first of all liberties."
                          Henri Frederic Amiel

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ChrisandJess View Post
                            Sorry I forgot to add that my stones are made of calcium oxalate.
                            low oxalate diet is very different than just not eating meat. Looks like another member is far more experienced than I am so I will keep quiet and listen.
                            sigpic
                            Age 48
                            Start date: 7-5-12
                            5'3"
                            121lbs
                            GOAL: to live to be a healthy and active 100


                            "In health there is freedom. Health is the first of all liberties."
                            Henri Frederic Amiel

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Grapefruit juice is bad... Orange juice is good.
                              I'm not 100% sure on the why except that the orange juice contains primarily potassium citrate, which is good.

                              I'm not into drinking sweet juices though.
                              And keeping your diet low in sugar is best, so I stick to lemon (key lime for my own preference) in water... all day every day.

                              I also take probiotics.
                              There is a very specific strain of probiotic that is supposed to help sequester oxalate in the gut so that it cannot be absorbed. That is Saccharomyces boulardii. I take this supplement containing it: Amazon.com: Garden of Life Primal Defense Ultra Ultimate Probiotics Formula, 90 VCaps: Health & Personal Care
                              I'm sure it can be found in a few other probiotic brand blends... but it's one of the tougher ones to find.

                              Also... if one has a CalOx stone problem they should take NO vitamin C supplements. Whatever C is found naturally in the foods you eat is fine, but none in pills or as additives.
                              Also, if you use the Calcium citrate supplements with high oxalate meals, make sure it is plain CalCit with no D in it. The D makes the calcium unavailable to bind the Oxalates.

                              I have a file with an up to date list of tested foods and their levels that I can probably send to your PM box of you request it.
                              I also can direct you to a group with more information, they are regularly updating the foods list with new test data... but they get a little too wild with the amount of supplements to take for me... and you have to jump through a hoop or two to get into the group.
                              Most of the Low Oxalate food information on the internet is outdated unfortunately.
                              “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                              ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                              And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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