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Is it time to put a muzzle on free speech?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Urban Forager View Post
    Wow you are kind of scary. Are American lives the only lives that you get this worked up about?
    innoncent lives that are taken by people who think they have the right to kill you because you don't believen in mohommed or islam....thats what gets me worked up...idiots who support and make excuses for people hwo take innoncent lives because they disagree with their religion

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Nady View Post
      So, it's okay to bully? slander? What about yelling *fire* in a theater, or *bomb* on a plane? There are some exceptions to free speech, wouldn't you say?
      These are not at issue, and you are distracting from the actual question at hand. These exceptions are exceptions because they cause direct harm to people. Insulting a religion, or the beliefs or history of said religion, does no one any direct harm. It's not even slander, because the people being spoken about are long dead--Muhammad himself can hardly press charges for defamation of character leading to material damage to his livelihood or reputation, can he? No one is forcing anyone (presumably) to watch this video, and the video itself AFAIK does not actually contain any incitement to violence (if it does that would change my opinion). It is criticism. It may be ignorant, wrong-headed and/or in extremely poor taste, but the only people who have done anything truly immoral or evil are the people who have perpetrated violence in reaction.

      Originally posted by Nady View Post
      If you knew saying a specific something would bring another person/group to violence against others, do you still have the 'right' to say it? Morally, ethically? IDK, some people have a short fuse (thinking about road rage here, not any group in particular). Whatever happened to *Discretion is the better part of valor*?
      You are not responsible for other people's actions. They are.

      Let me say it again. You are not responsible for other people's actions. They are.

      Let's put it another way: say you need to make a right turn, and you change lanes in front of someone to get in the right lane, then slow down and make your turn. Let's say you cut it a little closer than is strictly comfortable for the person behind you, and they have to get on the brakes to avoid running into you. Nothing dangerous--they had time to slow down, but it was annoying, abrupt and inconvenient. Now let's say this person you just cut off is an asshole, and proceeds to get all pissed off at the world and everybody, and is in an all-fired goddamn hurry because he and his time and his convenience are the most important thing on the goddamn planet, and he starts creeping up to 20 over the limit, tailgating and weaving through traffic, all "because that asshole [you, in this scenario, are "that asshole"] back there cut me off". Now let's say he's in such a big goddamn hurry that he runs a stoplight, as such rage-prone individuals are apt to do, and T-bones a 17-year-old girl driving her grandfather to the doctor's office, causing their deaths.

      Now, were you in any way at fault for this not-so-accident? You may have done something ill-considered and somewhat rude, but are you really expecting to take any of the blame for the death of this girl and her grandpa? I certainly wouldn't blame you; I wouldn't take your driver's license away, or try and put you in traffic school, or do anything to you besides maybe advise you to drive a little more prudently in future because what you did could conceivably have directly caused a collision, had circumstances been less fortunate. The road-rager, on the other hand, should be in prison, because he fucking killed people through his direct, aggressive and reckless actions, not you. What he did with himself and his car, after you didn't cause him any harm, is in no way under your control but is under his.

      In case you're missing the parallel here, "you" are the creator of the inflammatory video in question, who I will freely admit did something dumb and fairly irresponsible. The road-raging asshole is an Islamist fanatic who thinks that his extremist religious beliefs are more important than other people's lives, and the people that got killed are the similarly uninvolved and innocent people who also got killed in the real world.

      Originally posted by Urban Forager View Post
      I can understand Nady's sentiment ..... what that video poster did was akin to yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater. Is any one asking why it was posted on Sept 11? Doesn't that seem a bit intentional? I think that who ever posted it is some what responsible for the reaction that occurred.
      Please see above as to why these are not at all the same thing. And yes, of course it was obviously, blatantly, intentionally offensive to Muslims--that doesn't make him responsible for anyone's death. He (or she?) said words. They destroyed lives and property. There is a world of difference and the two actions are not even in the same class of bad. The former is merely rude. The latter is inexcusably evil.
      Last edited by Uncephalized; 09-14-2012, 04:05 PM.
      Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

      My Primal Journal

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Primal Bill View Post
        you don't have the right to kill someone because you disagree with their religion!!!!!!!!
        Stop making excuses for muslims
        you idiot liberals attack christians/catholics non stop, with absolutely no retaliation.
        Stop making excuses for muslims.
        People attack x-tianity because it's the dominant religion in the US, and thus wields more power than any other. I find islam to be just as asinine as any other belief, but have no issues with most because they have very little impact on my life. Way too many x-tians would like to turn the US into a theocracy, which I have a serious issue with. As far as I can tell, no one is defending the actions of those causing the violence, but rather trying to understand the reasons for it. While I agree that thinking that we should ban anti-muslim speech is an incredibly bad idea, I get the frustration. Those who release this kind of thing do so knowing full well that they are further inflaming anger that is much more deep seated than "OMG, the infidels insulted Muhammad, KILL! KILL!" And they do it knowing full well what the reaction will be. Not just from fundamentalist muslims but also right wing x-tians who can't get down off of their crosses.
        Buy house, Demolish house, Build house.

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        • #19
          Who is questioning the 1st amendment? We're questioning what if anything should be done when somebody's first amendment rights cause a political disaster. Should anything be done? Should nothing be done? If anything should be done, then what do you do when we hold such a cherished position as the freedom of speech? If nothing should be done, then what do we do about what's happening? Nothing?
          Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Uncephalized View Post

            Let's put it another way: say you need to make a right turn, and you change lanes in front of someone to get in the right lane, then slow down and make your turn. Let's say you cut it a little closer than is strictly comfortable for the person behind you, and they have to get on the brakes to avoid running into you. Nothing dangerous--they had time to slow down, but it was annoying, abrupt and inconvenient. Now let's say this person you just cut off is an asshole, and proceeds to get all pissed off at the world and everybody, and is in an all-fired goddamn hurry because he and his time and his convenience are the most important thing on the goddamn planet, and he starts creeping up to 20 over the limit, tailgating and weaving through traffic, all "because that asshole [you, in this scenario, are "that asshole"] back there cut me off". Now let's say he's in such a big goddamn hurry that he runs a stoplight, as such rage-prone individuals are apt to do, and T-bones a 17-year-old girl driving her grandfather to the doctor's office, causing their deaths.

            Now, were you in any way at fault for this not-so-accident? You may have done something ill-considered and somewhat rude, but are you really expecting to take any of the blame for the death of this girl and her grandpa? I certainly wouldn't blame you; I wouldn't take your driver's license away, or try and put you in traffic school, or do anything to you besides maybe advise you to drive a little more prudently in future because what you did could conceivably have directly caused a collision, had circumstances been less fortunate. The road-rager, on the other hand, should be in prison, because he fucking killed people through his direct, aggressive and reckless actions, not you. What he did with himself and his car, after you didn't cause him any harm, is in no way under your control but is under his.

            In case you're missing the parallel here, "you" are the creator of the inflammatory video in question, who I will freely admit did something dumb and fairly irresponsible. The road-raging asshole is an Islamist fanatic who thinks that his extremist religious beliefs are more important than other people's lives, and the people that got killed are the similarly uninvolved and innocent people who also got killed in the real world.
            I agree~ but let's add to your example~ lets just say you knew this other driver~ from the neighborhood. You knew he tended to overreact, that he was a hothead. Would you still change lanes in front of him, or slow down and pull behind?

            Do I believe everyone is responsible for their actions? You betcha I do! But I also know that everyone does not hold life as dearly as I do. Especially the life of an infidel. For everyone to cherish the same rights, it helps if they have the same values, don't you think?
            Last edited by Nady; 09-14-2012, 04:57 PM.

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            • #21
              Ever try to put your hand over the mouth of a 3-year-old who is being loud and annoying? You get your hand bit and/or slobbered all over. It's not a good idea.
              You lousy kids! Get off my savannah!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Primal Bill View Post
                HOW DARE YOU! HOW FN DARE YOU question our 1st ammendment because of the way some idiot muslim terrorists respond. YOU SHOULD BE ASHMAED Of yourself for even asking the question. You are pathetic. It's weak people like you and weak people like the president who have given these idiots the confidence to threaten american lives and american property. how dare you question our freedom of speech. you make me sick. people like you make me sick. Why don't you criticize the idiots who are responsible for killing innoncent americans and attacking property. Stop making excuses for people who think they have the right to kill you because oyu disagree with their religion. Start criticizing the muslims who act like animals. You make me sick
                For those that missed it, I think this guy forgot the [SARCASM] [/SARCASM] tags. I thought the intent was funny, but execution was lacking.

                (If you still don't see it, he's trying to silence those who are questioning the value of the First Amendment.)

                And to the original poster, no, there are very few limits to free speech that I will accept. This is not one of them.
                Last edited by jfreaksho; 09-14-2012, 05:26 PM.

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                • #23
                  If you believe there should be limits to the 1st Amendment, then my question to the op is, where does it stop? Today it is, supposedly, about blasphomy of their prophet. What happens when they decide to torture, rape and kill innocent people for refusing to observe thier sabbath or refusing to go to morning prayer? There is no excuse for the actions of these animals and making excuses or apoligizing is only playing into their hands.

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                  • #24
                    I am responsible for my actions.

                    Others are responsible for their actions.

                    If someone acts poorly in response to my speech, that is NOT a problem with my freedom of speech, it is a problem with their inability to act properly.

                    Shutting me up doesn't make them better at acting properly, it allows them to continue acting improperly, and stifles any speech that they don't agree with.
                    Durp.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Diana Renata View Post
                      And for free speech, there is no such right to not be offended.
                      This, definitely this!

                      (...and the first amendment doesn't apply to people who are not USian. )
                      Last edited by jojohaligo; 09-14-2012, 06:56 PM.
                      Female, age 51, 5' 9"
                      SW - 183 (Jan 22, 2012), CW - 159, GW - healthy.

                      Met my 2012 goals by losing 24 pounds.
                      2013 goals are to get fit and strong!

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Nady View Post
                        It's always been the backbone of our freedoms, but I doubt the founding fathers ever imagined anyone's opinions would move beyond our shores. I think the original idea was to give the people of the USA the right to criticize our government without fearing prosecution. How does that gives someone the right to spew their hatred of other people/countries over the WWW via youtube?

                        We aren't one small nation in a big world anymore. Should there be consequences for those that hide behind our rights and use their words to cause death and distruction abroad? If this happened on our shores, I think these people would be charged with hate crimes.

                        Can we discuss? I'd like to understand better, because right now, I'm just sick.
                        You know what makes me sick? People like you who can't place the blame solely where it belongs, on the savages who committed these MURDERS! In my opinion you are a despicable human being!

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by parakeet View Post
                          If you believe there should be limits to the 1st Amendment, then my question to the op is, where does it stop? Today it is, supposedly, about blasphomy of their prophet. What happens when they decide to torture, rape and kill innocent people for refusing to observe thier sabbath or refusing to go to morning prayer? There is no excuse for the actions of these animals and making excuses or apoligizing is only playing into their hands.
                          I believe in all of our American rights. But I'm not so sure other cultures understand them the way they're meant. For example, first Americans came from countries where they were 'punished' if they spoke out against their government/rulers. So, having the protection of free speech was something near and dear to the writers of the Constitution.

                          But we're not a little upstart nation anymore. It's gotten to be a small, small world, with people of many nations and beliefs. Do we have the right to use our freedoms to tweak their sensitivities? Do we have the right to expect them to react the same way we would? Do we have the obligation to be politically correct at home, but culturally insensitive to the rest of the world?

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                          • #28
                            No, it's not the time to put a muzzle on free speech.

                            Now, is the time to put a muzzle on foreign occupations and wars.

                            Okay?! Jesus frickin H. Christ.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by ecole66 View Post
                              You know what makes me sick? People like you who can't place the blame solely where it belongs, on the savages who committed these MURDERS! In my opinion you are a despicable human being!
                              I don't think Nady was asking rhetorical questions, Nady is asking questions and doesn't deserve to be called despicable.
                              Female, age 51, 5' 9"
                              SW - 183 (Jan 22, 2012), CW - 159, GW - healthy.

                              Met my 2012 goals by losing 24 pounds.
                              2013 goals are to get fit and strong!

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by parakeet View Post
                                If you believe there should be limits to the 1st Amendment, then my question to the op is, where does it stop? Today it is, supposedly, about blasphomy of their prophet. What happens when they decide to torture, rape and kill innocent people for refusing to observe thier sabbath or refusing to go to morning prayer? There is no excuse for the actions of these animals and making excuses or apoligizing is only playing into their hands.
                                They already torture rape and kill innoncent people. But according to the op, we shouldn't say anything to offend them. It's wrong to offend them

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