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80/10/10 raw veganism is more paleo than nutritional ketosis.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
    Whoever here that doesn't track something with numbers please cast the first stone. Some track calories, some track macros, some track nutrients, some track weightlifting goals, some track heart rate, some track speed running the mile. Why does tracking this one area offend some people so terribly much? Or is this just another example of someone thinking wow, that Nikoley and Kurt Harris are so cool and they talk a big bluster full of sneering insults so I'm gonna be like them and people will think I'm really cool too?
    I've read a lot of Nikoley's posts and I've read a lot of your posts, and I can say definitively that not only is Nikoley far more balanced, but he also throws around far, far, far less insults. You certainly suffer from "special flower syndrome." You're a self-proclaimed exception to every rule. Personally, I don't think you know what truly works best for you because you're so entrenched in your ways it's become more of a religious crusade than open-minded self-experimentation.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
      I've read a lot of Nikoley's posts and I've read a lot of your posts, and I can say definitively that not only is Nikoley far more balanced, but he also throws around far, far, far less insults. You certainly suffer from "special flower syndrome." You're a self-proclaimed exception to every rule. Personally, I don't think you know what truly works best for you because you're so entrenched in your ways it's become more of a religious crusade than open-minded self-experimentation.
      You've got to be fucking kidding me. Between this and the post you made with the letter you sent to him, um . . . you've got some serious fan-boy adulation going on, speaking of religious crusades . . .
      Buy house, Demolish house, Build house.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
        I've read a lot of Nikoley's posts and I've read a lot of your posts, and I can say definitively that not only is Nikoley far more balanced, but he also throws around far, far, far less insults. You certainly suffer from "special flower syndrome." You're a self-proclaimed exception to every rule. Personally, I don't think you know what truly works best for you because you're so entrenched in your ways it's become more of a religious crusade than open-minded self-experimentation.
        OMG, are you for serious? Nikoley is nothing BUT insults anymore. Unless you're saying the insults don't count if it's a woman. Zing!

        Nikoley's beating his chest and his drum and proud of it. His comment threads are nothing but insults to anyone who dares question his infinite wisdom. He encourages his readers to pile on. There are whole tumblrs dedicated to just what an asshole he is. Ugh. I pity the people who view him as a role model. They have a lot to learn about the world.
        Steph
        My Primal Meanderings

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        • #49
          A bit of confusion here.

          1. I'm not sugar addicted. Nor am I carb addicted, if such a thing even exists.

          2. I'm not advocating raw veganism. I was comparing two extreme eating plans which are an almost identical mirror image of one another. 80/10/10 is only "more paleo" in the sense that there are more hunter gatherers today that eat closer to that macronutrient ratio than the other. Perhaps it's more out of necessity than taste, but they still don't suffer from any "diseases of insulin" that you would expect from such high consumption of carbohydrates. I could be a real pain in the ass and point out that durianrider's diet is actually less extreme than Jimmy Moore's if only because he allows more leeway with fat - up to 10% of calories.

          3. Sago palm: Kombai Women Collecting Sago - YouTube - That's a bad video, and a better example can be found in the movie Pururambo. It's available for instant watch on Netflix. It's an interesting process that really shows how enterprising we are as a species, and it kind of redefines "processed food" in my mind.

          4. There's nothing wrong with ketosis. I enjoyed it quite a lot back when I thought a rise in blood sugar was the most dangerous thing in the world. My issue is with this new concept of nutritional ketosis - which came straight out of the Atkins camp, by the way - as the solution for failed low carb dieting. I had to scoff when listening to Stephen Finney tell someone that even though they haven't reached their goal weight on a (more than probably) ketogenic diet, what success they did have was impressive and they should be pleased with the results despite the stall. And that story is more common than you would think, but the failure of the diet to deliver results all the way down to goal are always blamed on the mystical "metabolic derangement," which no one ever seems to want to define.

          Even if that's just a fancy term for insulin resistance, low carb diets do not restore insulin sensitivity. Avoiding glucose will absolutely lower your A1C and control your blood sugar, but it won't allow you to eat a potato without consequence. Jimmy Moore's been on the Atkins diet for near of a decade now, yet he still refers to himself as metabolically broken (but somehow extremely healthy at the same time). If low carb "paleo" is the healthiest way to eat, why does it not repair this elusive metabolic damage?

          I guess ketosis just wasn't ketotic enough. Too much protein, maybe. Or maybe it's all just bullshit.

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          • #50
            I actually got into an argument with him a while back. He was saying that there was definitely no god and the people who say there is a god are closed minded. I said if he wasn't willing to admit the possibility that he was wrong then he was just as closed minded.
            The funny part was when I called him a zealot. You could almost hear the cursing, even though it was a typed argument.
            In all of the universe there is only one person with your exact charateristics. Just like there is only one person with everybody else's characteristics. Effectively, your uniqueness makes you pretty average.

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            • #51
              I actually got into an argument with him a while back. He was saying that there was definitely no god and the people who say there is a god are closed minded. I said if he wasn't willing to admit the possibility that he was wrong then he was just as closed minded.
              The funny part was when I called him a zealot. You could almost hear the cursing, even though it was a typed argument.
              In all of the universe there is only one person with your exact charateristics. Just like there is only one person with everybody else's characteristics. Effectively, your uniqueness makes you pretty average.

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              • #52
                "two extreme diets?"

                I honestly don't know what you are comparing. What is "extreme" about paleo, when it's a broad spectrum of diets which eschew processed foods and grains (it may or may not include dairy depending upon the individual)?

                I don't see anything particularly extreme about it, and I don't see anything in it that says it's going to be or has to be low carb either. It just ends up that way for some/many people.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                  I've read a lot of Nikoley's posts and I've read a lot of your posts, and I can say definitively that not only is Nikoley far more balanced, but he also throws around far, far, far less insults.
                  WFT? Are you deliberately being ridiculously wrong as a cry for attentional *again*?

                  Nikoley to me is similar to Anthony Colpo as someone who knows their stuff, is often right, but is so antagonistic and abrasive in his manner that the method they use to communicate obscures their message. They both suffer from the ability to fill an olympic swimming pool with bile in response to a perceived slight from someone (anyone!), all while claiming that they are the victim.

                  Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                  Whoever here that doesn't track something with numbers please cast the first stone.
                  Sure. Who do I throw it at?

                  (or does needing to buy smaller pants count as tracking with numbers?)
                  Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                  Griff's cholesterol primer
                  5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                  Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                  TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                  bloodorchid is always right

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                  • #54
                    I was referring specifically to nutritional ketosis as an extreme diet, not paleo. Moderate protein, extremely low carb, mostly high fat dairy and oil (not entirely paleo, in and of itself), AND monitored by a ketone meter to make sure you're doing it right. How is that not extreme?

                    I agree it's a broad spectrum, but Jimmy Moore keeps telling me it's high fat, moderate protein and low carb, so heck, I don't know what to think! And he does have a lot of pull in the paleo community, as does Gary Taubes, when they really shouldn't.

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                    • #55
                      Well, high fat dairy is not part of paleo, and a "maybe" on primal. Mostly people just need to use common sense. But it seems like a lot of people have success with weightloss and feel great in ketosis.

                      You need to think about what works for you. Eating straight coconut oil, butter and fat.... the thought of that makes me ill and in no way sounds healthy for me. If you think it sounds good, and might work for you, do it. If not, carry on eating from the primal list of foods.

                      Look, as someone who has done about 1,377,879 diets, someone always has some weird idea that worked for them, along with some science. They talk a lot. Remember Susan Powter and her pasta diet? Yeah, she had science. Primal as written here is one of the most common sense, easiest and healthiest ways of eating out there. If you eat this way.... you are probably doing just fine.

                      http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                      Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                        You need to think about what works for you. Eating straight coconut oil, butter and fat.... the thought of that makes me ill and in no way sounds healthy for me.
                        Yeah, I know what you mean. I'll have a bite of butter here and there but eating a whole stick would probably make me ill. Heavy cream, on the other hand, I could drink until my stomach pops open.
                        In all of the universe there is only one person with your exact charateristics. Just like there is only one person with everybody else's characteristics. Effectively, your uniqueness makes you pretty average.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          This is ridiculous. Nikoley is absolutely nothing like Anthony Colpo. Colpo is a self-proclaimed fitness guru and purposely tries to be inflammatory just for shock value. Nikoley's old writings were harsher from years ago, but not anymore. He's been getting attacked left and right recently, and his responses have been comparatively gracious compared to those that insulted him (and may I remind you, it's typically the other person that starts the argument). In addition, Nikoley constantly admits when he is wrong, unlike some of these other idiots.

                          Nikoley isn't profiting huge off his website. He never claimed to be a guru. He doesn't even take good pictures of the food he makes. The people that have a problem with him are typically female low-carbers that refuse to read into the context of what he says and get offended by surface words. Guess what: Nikoley used to be a staunch low-carber and didn't believe in calories. He has since changed this path, eats lots of carbohydrate, believes that calories are the defining force behind weight loss and has admitted he was incorrect in the past.

                          And this has pissed a lot of people off.

                          I like Nikoley because he's honest, and I respect his ability to admit when he's wrong, unlike most of the self-righteous know-it-alls in the paleosphere. If you have an issue with Nikoley, it's probably because you have an issue with yourself and he's called you out on your own biases. And it makes you uncomfortable.

                          I'm not joining in the pity party for the oversensitive weaklings.

                          To the ladies that are offended by this post: go shave your armpits and get back to me later. How's that for shock value?
                          Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                            Nikoley's old writings were harsher from years ago, but not anymore. He's been getting attacked left and right recently, and his responses have been comparatively gracious compared to those that insulted him (and may I remind you, it's typically the other person that starts the argument). In addition, Nikoley constantly admits when he is wrong, unlike some of these other idiots.
                            Really? Did you read yesterday's post? Yup, he's still an asshole.

                            Nikoley isn't profiting huge off his website. He never claimed to be a guru. He doesn't even take good pictures of the food he makes. The people that have a problem with him are typically female low-carbers that refuse to read into the context of what he says and get offended by surface words. Guess what: Nikoley used to be a staunch low-carber and didn't believe in calories. He has since changed this path, eats lots of carbohydrate, believes that calories are the defining force behind weight loss and has admitted he was incorrect in the past.
                            Yet he continues to act like like a douche-nozzle, which is a pretty good indication that his apologies are pretty full of shit.

                            And this has pissed a lot of people off.
                            Nope, it's the asshole part. Make all the excuses you want, but people don't like him because he's an obnoxious fuck-stick.


                            I like Nikoley because he's honest, and I respect his ability to admit when he's wrong, unlike most of the self-righteous know-it-alls in the paleosphere. If you have an issue with Nikoley, it's probably because you have an issue with yourself and he's called you out on your own biases. And it makes you uncomfortable.

                            I'm not joining in the pity party for the oversensitive weaklings.

                            To the ladies that are offended by this post: go shave your armpits and get back to me later. How's that for shock value?
                            No, you like him because he gives you permission to be an asshole as well. If he makes me uncomfortable at all it's because he reminds me of that creep that yells in your face, effectively shutting down all discussion because walking away is the only option he gives those that don't agree with him.
                            Buy house, Demolish house, Build house.

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                            • #59
                              ^^^I really couldn't care less what your opinion of Richard is. He's honest and he's not trying to sell you a timeshare. If you don't like it, don't read his site. You're the worst kind of critic - the kind that reads just to find something to complain about. That, actually, makes you the asshole. Shouldn't you be outside of a courthouse somewhere forming a picket line to remove the Ten Commandments from the lobby? If you don't like his material, I suggest you read other things that don't make you run to strangers on the internet for comfort.
                              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Holy shit, you guys sidetracked my thread good and proper.

                                But I might as well weigh in on this Nikoley thing. I can respect Melissa for flipping her shit and calling out the BS in the community (I'm not so big on the misogyny angle), and Nikoley appears to be making himself look like a pretty big fool. This whole thing kind of reminds me of the Michael Richards n-word controversy, but imagine if instead of his weak ass apology to "Afro Americans" on Letterman (Letterman, right?), he went on The O'Reilly Factor and vehemently defended himself and his right to free speech and continued with the crude language just for shock value and to prove a shallow point.

                                He's not going to win, and I'm enjoying Melissa's pot shots along the way. I can respect a person who actually kind of gives a shit about science as opposed to a mostly useless shock jock blogger who tells people about paleo, so THAT'S why he's important.

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