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Lots of fat, with no starch or carbs? Or vice versa?

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  • #16
    My n=1 with macros:

    High fat + high carb = fat gain.

    High fat + low carb = fat gain.

    Low fat + high carb = fat loss in a healthy way (my top doesn't look emaciated)

    Low fat + low carb = fat loss in a bad way (all from my top, stubborn fat on bottom half remains).

    Everybody has a different situation going on, but for me, eating fat with or without carbs means instant fat gain, eating low fat means fat loss, so I really don't think the insulin response is as simple as most people make it out to be.

    If your goal is to maintain weight, then adding carbs would mean reducing fat beause you'd have to reduce calories from somewhere, right?

    OP, are you asking because you're thinking of changing your diet, or is this more of a theoretical question?
    Last edited by BestBetter; 08-19-2012, 06:27 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
      * insulin wars.


      Twenty adults [body mass index (in kg/m(2)): 34.4 +/- 1.0] were randomly assigned to the KLC (60% of energy as fat, beginning with approximately 5% of energy as carbohydrate) or NLC (30% of energy as fat; approximately 40% of energy as carbohydrate) diet. During the 6-wk trial, participants were sedentary, and 24-h intakes were strictly controlled.

      KLC and NLC diets were equally effective in reducing body weight and insulin resistance, but the KLC diet was associated with several adverse metabolic and emotional effects. The use of ketogenic diets for weight loss is not warranted.
      This study sounds fixed from the start. What kinds of fats were these people using?, was it uniform among the entire group?, from what high/low quality of sources for said fats? Sedentary for 6 weeks on a high fat diet.? C'mon... That is intentionally rigged, imo. Also it sounds like you might have cherry-picked this questionable study to reinforce your personal opinion & bias against ketogenic diets, as there is NOT any other scientifically valid (not rigged or poorly designed/executed), peer-reviewed studies to support this statement they/you are concluding the data analysis with. At least not that I'm aware of... If I'm wrong, please post any such good sources (Gawd, I sound like James...)

      Also, if keto diets ellicited negative metabolic &/or emotional effects, then why am I sleeping MUCH better without my normal homeopathic/herbal sleep aids that I normally required on moderate/unrestrained primal carb consumption? Why is my happiness, creativity, productivity & general outlook improved in the past week? And why are others experiencing similar POSITIVE effects on strict primallly oriented keto?
      Last edited by Betorq; 08-19-2012, 07:17 AM.
      "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
      "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
      "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

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      • #18
        Sigh, so many people still think it's only about calories in/calories out, and that is so obviously not true.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by palebluedots View Post
          Sigh, so many people still think it's only about calories in/calories out, and that is so obviously not true.
          until i turned 42, it was true for me. not anymore.
          As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

          Ernest Hemingway

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          • #20
            When I first dipped my toe in the primal seas I didn't know what N=1 means. Oh sure, I figured it out but the more I read, the more I listen to the podcasts, the summits, read the various blogs and individual results, the more I came to really understand thee significance and importance of N=1. Recently there has been a surge in various experts - health, fitness, nutrition, paleo - talking about how little the various older studies really tell us. male, female, young, old, metabolically broken, metabolically fit, sedentary lifestyle, active lifestyle, good prior nutrition, poor prior nutrition, supplement taker, non-supplement taker, genetic markers, epigenetics, parental histories, grandparent histories. There's just too many variables. Sure we can't stop looking at studies, but even how those studies are interpreted can be radically different. So what am I trying to say? I'm no scientist, I can barely analyze a lot of these studies people link to, and I do sometimes get swept up in the excitement of some of these experiments/discoveries - but - we're all so very, very different I finally understand the importance of N=1 and understand that what works for ME now might not even work as I come closer to optimal health. So not knowing every detail of the above study make me wonder like Betorq just how much this actually tells us. I only a vague idea of how complicated we each are and how much our parents and grandparents environment and actions affect our health. That said, I'm interested to hear how rations and macros and nutrients affect others, but it all boils down to my needing to discover how they affect me in the here and now.

            5 months in I still haven't found a baseline, but I'm starting to get in tune with my body. To the OP, I'd like to think that the ultimate answer is 'it depends on you and what works for you and you'll have to find out for yourself'.
            Last edited by KerryK; 08-19-2012, 01:02 PM. Reason: 'cause I don't proofread dagonnit!
            SW: 243
            CW: 177
            Goal: Health

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            • #21
              ...what she said.
              "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
              "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
              "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

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              • #22
                Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                It'll get burned again only if you don't raise up your insulin over and over. That's how you end up in the vicious circle of weight gain. And you can end up there on a calorie deficit. I know because it happened to me.
                I agree with this.

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                • #23
                  Sigh, so many people still think it's only about calories in/calories out, and that is so obviously not true.

                  until i turned 42, it was true for me. not anymore.
                  Operative word being "ONLY." There's that whole "fat-burner" thing which you have to do first. Then you can compare primal calories out to primal calories in.
                  5'0" female, 45 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Gained back to 115(!) on SAD chocolate, potato chips, and stress. Currently 111.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Betorq View Post
                    ...what she said.
                    +1
                    My chocolatey Primal journey

                    Unusual food recipes (plus chocolate) blog

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                    • #25
                      Sigh, so many people still think it's only about calories in/calories out, and that is so obviously not true.
                      until i turned 42, it was true for me. not anymore.

                      Originally posted by oxide View Post
                      Operative word being "ONLY." There's that whole "fat-burner" thing which you have to do first. Then you can compare primal calories out to primal calories in.
                      it worked great, and i was back in my very old size 6 jeans. until i turned 47 and my hormones went berserk and i have added 10 pounds that simply will not go. along with a bloated angry uterus that makes me look preggers. SUX.
                      As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

                      Ernest Hemingway

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by sakura_girl View Post
                        I disagree. If you are undereating, then after the fat is stored, it will get burned again because where in the world is your energy going to come from when you're undereating? 400 calories of pure butter will be burned just as much as 400 calories of mixed rice and butter.
                        This is true to a certain extent. However, I think the problem is that as a result you get hungry again faster, then eat more and go through the whole process again. Obviously if you don't go and eat more then you'll lose the fat.

                        To me it's more about hunger/desire for food. If you eat a high fat/low carb meal and remain completely satiated for hours then you'll end up burning more fat than if you eat a high fat/high carb meal (of the same calories), get the insulin spike, store the fat and then experience hunger more rapidly and eat more later.

                        Of course, all else being equal the calories should be the same.

                        Still, since going primal and eating high fat/low carb my weight has started coming down quite easily, and I struggled for a looong time cutting the fat down and eating more carbs. So it seems that for ME this is the way to go. I am not everyone though . I also can't say what will happen down the track as I still have a lot of fat to lose and I may need to re-jig as I go along to keep the fat coming off.

                        For now, this is the easiest I've ever lost weight in my life (errm except when I was taking prescription diet drugs and lost desire for food ). I fully acknowledge that it's not going to be the same for everyone.

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                        • #27
                          carbohyrdrates purpose is to be stored as fat. even a small meal of carb stops fat burning.
                          Paleo since November 2011 - Carnivore since June 2012
                          Before and after pics
                          http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65846.html
                          Primal Sucess Story
                          http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65400.html
                          Primal Journal
                          http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...tml#post955444

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by BennettC View Post
                            carbohyrdrates purpose is to be stored as fat. even a small meal of carb stops fat burning.
                            This is just not true, as far as I can tell from the science I've read and had explained to me. It's one of the pervasive myths of the low-carb world. It's also physically impossible, since if a small amount of carbs interfered with burning fat, then you would die every time you ate a handful of cheerios, because you would burn off the carb-calories in a half hour but the magical fat-blocking mechanism would still be active somehow, and you would be unable to get energy to your cells and your brain would die.

                            Luckily, your body is not that stupid, and your fat metabolism does not shut down when you eat oatmeal, and carbohydrate is a perfectly good source of energy for healthy people.
                            Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

                            My Primal Journal

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                            • #29
                              This article seems to confirm your suspicion!

                              No common energy currency: de novo lipogenesis as the road less traveled

                              Things like that make it really hard to believe the insulin hypothesis. For the cognitively dissonant who refuse to read the link, it basically says the body prioritizes oxidizing glucose over fatty acids, so in the presence of both--when consumed in excess of energy expenditure, in other words, too many calories--the body will store the fat and burn the glucose, thus making you... you know, fatter. De novo lipogenesis is possible, but far more common in the eat-whatever-the-hell-I-want-oh-look-cookies SAD eater than a young, Crossfitting paleo dieter who thinks they gained five pounds after eating a cookie because it spiked their blood sugar and insulin. Either way, it doesn't appear to contribute significantly to body fat stores except in the context of massive overfeeding with very little fat. That was written back in 2001. If there have been any significant additions to the literature on this subject since then, I encourage someone to share them.

                              tl;dr: Eat potatoes and enjoy them, damnit! (unless you're diabetic [but even diabetics have to admit that ketogenic low carb does not restore their insulin sensitivity; it simply keeps blood sugar in better check])

                              ^ You see that? That's a post that won't make me any friends.

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                              • #30
                                ^There is actually a lot more research out there since then....literally a ton. I'm sure your google scholar works though.

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