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  • Leida, I hear you in your contrariness. I live in So Cal on the coast and work at a university on the coast, so I see a lot of beautiful people. I don't care what anybody says about chronic cardio, the runners all look the best of anybody. Best muscles, flattest stomachs, best tans, best posture, most healthy-looking, most radiant. Maybe surfer dudes look better than runner dudes, but only some of them, and nobody looks better than the runner ladies.
    Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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    • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
      Maybe surfer dudes look better than runner dudes, but only some of them, and nobody looks better than the runner ladies.
      Lats time I was out at the beach, I noticed A LOT more grey hair. They were looking pretty good, but they were also looking my age.
      Durp.

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      • Originally posted by Leida View Post
        I think it's LGN rather than weight loss. Weight loss is pointless without fat loss and muscle building. One of the promises of this site that you *can* LGN. So, it attracts folks with that goal. Unfortunately, LGN is a hard, hard, hard goal for many people, even if their weight is fine according to CW. Body re-composition is what requires a lot of tweaking and letting go of the little pleasures. Basically, every day one makes a choice, what makes him or her happier: reflection in the mirror or food (quantity, quality). If mirror is what ultimately makes you happy, you can't eat away your feelings by chilling with bacon.
        If you think eating bacon won't help you look good naked, you obviously haven't understood this diet haha.

        Focus:

        I think the weight loss deal is the same deal as physical education courses. Very few people care about the fact that they don't speak that many languages, or that they sucked at math. Why? Because no one can notice it without you talking about it in some kind of way.

        Why are so many people obsessed about sucking in sports and keep rehashing old memories of gym teachers they didn't like? Because when you suck in physical education, EVERYBODY can see it. Failed a math test? Just hide it somewhere. Can't throw a ball or can't run? The whole class sees it in a matter of seconds. I could let third graders pick teams by themselves and the result would be the same as if I had to pick the kids for my team. They just know who is good at sports and who isn't in just a few minutes interacting together.

        The whole weight issue is the same. If you're fat, people can see it immediately, you just can't hide it. I totally get why some people can obsess over that. I'll even admit that, personally, I'll never be with a girl who can't stay slim/in shape (I tend to go for the Crossfit girl look). Why? Because if she's fat, it tells me right away that she either can't find the right information to keep herself healthy, or that she has the right information but doesn't have the personal discipline to use it properly. I won't hate her because of it, I just won't be interested in her as a potential life partner (I expect the girl I'm with to want the same from me). For that reason, if I was fat, I'd probably be obsessed too about finding the most effective way to look good naked too.

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        • Leida, I hear you in your contrariness. I live in So Cal on the coast and work at a university on the coast, so I see a lot of beautiful people. I don't care what anybody says about chronic cardio, the runners all look the best of anybody. Best muscles, flattest stomachs, best tans, best posture, most healthy-looking, most radiant. Maybe surfer dudes look better than runner dudes, but only some of them, and nobody looks better than the runner ladies.
          Well, I see plenty of non good-looking runners in the park, and I mostly find my "Woah!" bodies in the rec center where I train, still... The more I think about it, the less I am inclined to believe that the genetics can prevent one from having a firm looking athletic body. I can't accept that a healthy body sports bulges of fat, male or female. I believe that given the right inputs, psychological, physical and spiritual, the body will shed the fat that is not necessary for the system. I believe that clean unprocessed eating and physical activity that your body is naturally good at take care of the physical portion, and once you get that, got an idea how your body feels full and what it reacts badly to, it is the psychological and spiritual stimulus that gotta be addressed so the person can function in the climate of the over-abundance of food, even good food and the culture of immediate gratification/unacceptance of any hardship.
          My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
          When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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          • Originally posted by Winterbike View Post
            Because if she's fat, it tells me right away that she either can't find the right information to keep herself healthy, or that she has the right information but doesn't have the personal discipline to use it properly.
            Eh... sort of...

            Sometimes there's something else going on that she has no control over. I can tell you that I was doing great and at pretty much a perfect weight until I had 2 concussions within 6 months, then all hell broke loose. I was eating the same (though my cravings were over the top) and moving the same, but suddenly I was 20 pounds heavier. It changed a few other things like depression and irritabilty (which are thankfully gone already) but here I am , 6 months later, and I still can't get rid of those 20 pounds. Hopefully in another 6 months...

            But I guess I'm just trying to say it's not always a matter of having the information and using it. Sometimes it's your body having other priorities or being damaged.

            Having said that, you should date whomever you're attracted to. I'm definitely not arguing that looks don't matter when it comes to attraction.
            Durp.

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            • The whole weight issue is the same. If you're fat, people can see it immediately, you just can't hide it. I totally get why some people can obsess over that. I'll even admit that, personally, I'll never be with a girl who can't stay slim/in shape (I tend to go for the Crossfit girl look). Why? Because if she's fat, it tells me right away that she either can't find the right information to keep herself healthy, or that she has the right information but doesn't have the personal discipline to use it properly. I won't hate her because of it, I just won't be interested in her as a potential life partner (I expect the girl I'm with to want the same from me). For that reason, if I was fat, I'd probably be obsessed too about finding the most effective way to look good naked too.
              Exactly.... and that extrapolates from dating to actual employment in many cases. We had a client in here the other day that commented to my boss and I that "We are not fat enough to shop WalMart." Do you think with that attitude he is going to choose a fat employee? My neighbor is back on the weight loss drugs- she'll be unemployed soon and needs to "not be a fat ass at interviews".

              http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
              Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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              • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                Well, I see plenty of non good-looking runners in the park, and I mostly find my "Woah!" bodies in the rec center where I train, still... The more I think about it, the less I am inclined to believe that the genetics can prevent one from having a firm looking athletic body. I can't accept that a healthy body sports bulges of fat, male or female. I believe that given the right inputs, psychological, physical and spiritual, the body will shed the fat that is not necessary for the system. I believe that clean unprocessed eating and physical activity that your body is naturally good at take care of the physical portion, and once you get that, got an idea how your body feels full and what it reacts badly to, it is the psychological and spiritual stimulus that gotta be addressed so the person can function in the climate of the over-abundance of food, even good food and the culture of immediate gratification/unacceptance of any hardship.
                I'm not talking about joggers in the park. I'm talking the runners. The ones who compete and win. The ones with scholarships to the university where I work. Those men and women have the best bodies of all the athletes and of all the other random beautiful people on the campus where I work.

                It's sad when Winterbike says that kind of thing. A lot of us women can only have the body he believes indicates health by doing incredibly unhealthy things. I'm really super healthy but can't get that kind of body, not even if I exercise 14-16 hours a day. And I have done it so I know.
                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                • Winterbike believes what he believe. I got clued in at the tender age of 20 that love has nothing to do with the body shape. I fell hard for a guy when I was 17 in the Uni, and I thought if only I was prettier, I will attract his attention. So, when i was 20, I had that boring vacation with mom I mention 100 times, and we hiked and swam in the mountains consuming huge amounts of veggie and fruit with a bit of oil, and I for once like, had a honey tan, and was 110 lbs. That was one time in my life, I was beautiful no ifs, buts etc. Well, I came back to school this year, he was married to a plum gal who had a golden heart, iron will and shared his interests in climbing, guitar etc.

                  I was also hired for my best job ever when I was trying to get pg and was sporting extra 10 lbs I picked up based on the old wives tales that it will help me to conceive (it did not, btw!) When I finally lost all the post-pg weight and went back to my pre-preg weight people at work thought I miraculously changed somehow, but for me it was 'back to normal'. But my extra weight did not impact my professional carrier.

                  (Shrug) Personal happiness, love, relationships - nothing is made impossible by being fat imo. It's just the personal satisfaction with one's body.

                  Whatever.

                  Also, a not: I am not sure why people equate 'strong' legs on a woman with fat deposition in the thigh area. For me a strong leg will have defined quad and, in particular, hamstring with little fat deposition and clear muscular definition. Fat depositions are not contributing to strength, just to dribble - which is opposite to strength imo. It will have a bonus developed calf, but you don't normally have problems mobilizing fat deposits there with an overall fat loss.
                  Last edited by Leida; 08-22-2012, 07:13 AM.
                  My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                  When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                  • I think that there is FAT and then there is "fat". 10lbs.... extra is "fat".

                    Being very overweight to a noticeable degree gets you disrespected. At 185, our client obviously did not view me as fat

                    The 10lbs extra... no one notices. But yeah, 100lbs extra does become an issue. People want to get out of the state of being considered too fat to be employable, to fat to be dateable etc. pretty pronto, plus its a health issue. That's why a say, 250 lb woman wants to lose weight faster than 2-3 lbs a month. And will do just about anything to speed that up.

                    I have fat legs, and they are strong. I was much chagrined to read an article about Olympic cyclists with "massive" 27" thighs. Yeah, I got those. There is some fat covering them, but I also have ginormous quads. I can do squats and lunges all day long. My thighs are only 1" smaller than my waist. And I have lost no inches from them since starting primal. Marks article touches on that weight storage area, LOL. However, I think the "eww gross, unhealthy" fat people react to are the spare tires around the abs, not thunder thighs or booties.

                    http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                    Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                    • Yeah, I dunno, for me 10 extra pounds is like 50, I basically get into size 12 and up the moment I start cresting 130 lbs; I truly looked awful at 150-160 post-pg, like an obese person, even if I was barely overweight by BMI standard, and my legs were just gross. I see other pics of women at 150, and they look fine. The skinny-fat thing, I suppose. If I were 100 lbs overweight, I probably would not even be able to see my nose on my face.

                      I hope Mark's article doesn't suggest that in its pure variation Primal women who follow it will end up looking like Primal Venuses of Scythian steppes.... Ye gods.

                      I looked for thighs diet I saw on the net and I don't think it will work (It's just very low fat CW). What I have read from research suggests that:

                      Cutting down O6 to minimums and jacking up O3 by avoiding pork and chicken skin, but instead loading on salmon, coconut oil and )3 eggs will help to jack up O3 so the body stops desperately store fat on the thigh in order to have another baby-supporting chemical it stores there.
                      Lay off squats (limit to 1ce a week) and go for lunges and deadlifts instead to de-emphasize the quad and emphasize hamstring
                      Add short, intense HIIT (15-20 min) after each lifting workout to increase blood flow to the fat depositions but not strip muscle
                      No sugar, limited starch, and from slow sources.

                      Super contrasting feast and fast diets including IF may work for some, do not work for me - stretch my stomach, unbalance my sugar. However, some women may totally benefit from it.

                      One thing I am not sure about is the whole protein game thing, i.e. if it leads to a better build if a woman replaces more red meats with dairy and beans. There is CW evidence hugely in favor of it, but contradicts Paleo/Primal dogma. And I haven't seen specific relation to the fat loss in the outer thigh area.

                      I am also not sure about the role of salt, have not researched that.
                      Last edited by Leida; 08-22-2012, 08:26 AM.
                      My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                      When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Winterbike View Post
                        Because if she's fat, it tells me right away that she either can't find the right information to keep herself healthy, or that she has the right information but doesn't have the personal discipline to use it properly.
                        From a female perspective....if I guy is TOO thin, has muscle and NO fat ANYWHERE, no padding, and completely lean, he would not be able to survive hard times in the wild.
                        If I was male, I think I would feel the same about girls. I would not want to have some skinny chick with NO fat deposits tagging along with me through the wild trying to survive. She'd quickly exhaust her muscles including the heart and then have nothing to fall back on.

                        Most primitive people (the ones that aren't starving in the desert) have healthy padding around the body. It's funny how Hollywood killed most peoples natural instincts about what health should look like.
                        And girls that run? Well non of them have tits and most don't even get their periods anymore.
                        I blame the magazines...

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                        • From a female perspective....if I guy is TOO thin, has muscle and NO fat ANYWHERE, no padding, and completely lean, he would not be able to survive hard times in the wild.
                          Actually, those wiry guys gave run for the money to more padded guys when we used to do field geology trips with heavy backpacks and hammers and additional load of stones. African bushmen look pretty sinewy to me. Ancient Greeks had barely had any fat.... Romans considered fat a sign of moral degradation. Ancient Chinese cultivated an image of a lanky scholar. Buddists did a lot of things with fasting and asceticism. A fat medieval monk was a but of Renascence outrage with hypocrisy. Saints looked slender. Henry the VIII was endlessly pointed out as sinful and obese. The 19th century romantic poets and writers went as far as worship sickly dying girls with their last flash of beauty left by tuberculosis.

                          It's not Hollywood, it is a natural human instinct to consider a leaner body healthier. Only cultures that are starving or are past a hardship period start prefering fuller figures.
                          Last edited by Leida; 08-22-2012, 10:08 AM.
                          My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                          When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Issabeau View Post
                            Most primitive people (the ones that aren't starving in the desert) have healthy padding around the body. It's funny how Hollywood killed most peoples natural instincts about what health should look like.
                            And girls that run? Well non of them have tits and most don't even get their periods anymore.
                            I blame the magazines...
                            This...
                            The media's promotion of what is "beautiful", and what is accepted as beautiful by the masses due to media promotion, does not necessarily = healthy.

                            I even find myself thinking that many of the men in TV/Movie media lately need to stop cutting so hard and freaking eat for a change! Much less the extremist diet actresses...

                            And the runners/triathletes... Central FL is rife with them, there is a national training center just a few miles from my house. Often when they are training you cannot tell the men from the women. I'm NOT joking. I've been with guy friends, including my husband, who went to ogle a runner or cyclist with a pony tail only to look back to find that it was a dude, or just be thoroughly confused. Many of the males and females both have pretty much the same body fat and build... That lack of fat really shows in their skin and hair IMO. They look less healthy.
                            “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                            ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                            And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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                            • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                              Actually, those wiry guys gave run for the money to more padded guys when we used to do field geology trips with heavy backpacks and hammers and additional load of stones. African bushmen look pretty sinewy to me. Ancient Greeks had barely had any fat.... Romans considered fat a sign of moral degradation. Ancient Chinese cultivated an image of a lanky scholar. Buddists did a lot of things with fasting and asceticism. It's not Hollywood, it is a natural human instinct to consider a leaner body healthier. Only cultures that are starving or are past a hardship period start prefering fuller figures.
                              Well yes, fuller bodies have more success during hard times, when fullness implies wellness/richness.
                              On the other hand one who knows food will come tomorrow and the day after tomorrow wouldn't binge on anything because scarcity would never be a problem. I see this with my permanently empty fridge, I don't store food at home but choose to buy fresh stuff everyday, this thing sends my ex mother in law (who lived through ww2 during her infancy) up the walls because she feels some primal desperation connected to food shortages. I never lived through food shortages, never suffered a deprivation time (well, only related to my medical condition but that doesn't count) so when I binge and if I binge is because there's some stuff out there I really like (chocolate anyone?).
                              I guess there should be some distinction made between fuller figures, overweight bodies and obesity because there's no way a size zero could be healthy for every single woman out there. I'm finding some equilibrium with my weight now after so much effort and I'm willing to work my ass out in order to get a firmer, toned body with o loose skin but my final goal is to live a healthy life and if that implies I'll never get rid of some fat so be it: I'm tired of punishing myself for not being able to fit into some old skinny pants.

                              Luce
                              No limits, only my will and the worlds I build.

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                              • Leida, I hear you in your contrariness. I live in So Cal on the coast and work at a university on the coast, so I see a lot of beautiful people. I don't care what anybody says about chronic cardio, the runners all look the best of anybody. Best muscles, flattest stomachs, best tans, best posture, most healthy-looking, most radiant. Maybe surfer dudes look better than runner dudes, but only some of them, and nobody looks better than the runner ladies.
                                The opposite here. Runners in NW Washington all look disgusting. Mostly bones, sunken eyes, floppy necks from all the muscle wasting. Gray skin - they largely look like zombies.
                                Crohn's, doing SCD

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