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  • #16
    I think looking good naked is something we are all too harsh on ourselves about. If the reactions I get from men are any indication, a significant number of them believe I'm going to look good naked (if they could just get the opportunity) even though from the perspective of the "media" (even considering this website as the "medial"), I am far from looking good naked.
    Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by quelsen View Post
      and YES everyone is basically fat and unhealthy, but they are all choosing it.
      ^This kind of thinking is precisely the problem.

      Look, I don't argue that some people are eating out several times a day. I don't even argue that some people choose to be overweight and unhealthy for convenience's sake. I do believe in the concept of personal responsibility.

      However, I don't think sentiments along the line of "fat people deserve it because they are too stupid to do anything about it" will help the situation. You don't know what is going on in the individual's life. Perhaps they have been unemployed for months and have to eat beans and rice three meals a day just to eat. Maybe they have an underlying health condition but can't afford a doctor, or worse, that the doctor they see has loaded them up on so many prescriptions that their weight is spiraling out of control.

      And while there are many who are overweight an unhealthy, there are also many who are overweight and healthy and many more who are normal weight or underweight and unhealthy.

      Ideally, health should be the goal and a healthy weight should come along for the ride.

      But this isn't Xanadu.
      please be patient with me, i'm a newbie.

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      • #18
        In order for me to be healthy, I have to not be obese. According to the BMI calculators, I'm 15 lbs away from being "overweight"... I carry too much weight, like much of society, so my focus is on losing weight - but doing so the HEALTHY way with a paleo diet.
        Primal since March 5, 2012
        SW: 221 | CW: 204 | LPW: 166 | UGW: 140 (80 lbs loss)



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        • #19
          Magnolia and Quelsen
          I think people treat to fat people as to people that CHOSE to be that way.
          But, for the most part, isn't that true? I'm not talking about people with metabolic syndromes (the minority)
          No one ever put a gun to people heads, forcing them to shove another coke or/and another doughnut to their face.
          Of course, everyone has their own reasons (emotional or environmental) but we are still living in free countries.

          I'm going to say something that may piss people.
          Please remind yourself that is my point of view, and I'm a hard-gainer.

          I'm not talking about people who has only 5kgs to lose -
          When I see huge people, it makes me sick. Sometimes I want to scream at them - "what the fuck are you doing to yourself?"
          If a fat person sits next to me and starts eating a bun filled with (no cholesterol!) chocolate and coke, I feel goddamn superior next to him. He's going to die earlier, he has difficulties finding love in his life, he is or he is going to be sick, popping pills and visit doctors. And he's doing all of this to himself.
          If my body is my temple, a fat person's body is ruins.
          It disgusts me, I have no desire to know someone who treats himself like that

          Is it shallow? Hell yea. We live in a shallow world where looks got weight (no pun intended).
          Do I treat like this to myself as well? Unfortunately, yes. I'm a perfectionist, obsessive person. Many people are.
          I don't hate fat people. It is just impossible for me to look beyond their flaws and try to get to know them.
          No one is perfect and I'm sure they are wonderful people.
          I know my attitude is wrong but I just can't change my mind about seeing a fat person and not thinking he's given up on himself.
          Last edited by Gilleh; 08-16-2012, 09:16 AM.
          Everything is bad for something - How do you feel today?

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          • #20
            They are actually choosing it, but not as consciously as it would take to actually blame them 100% for their condition. Everything about our society makes choosing what actually makes a person healthy way more difficult. They have to go against their doctors and the whole low-fat message for one thing. And since the industrialization of our food, most people are losing knowledge about food and preparation. Most grocery stores don't even have butchers anymore. They have meat slicers. All the meat is send pre-packaged or in quarters and the "butchers" just slice it into smaller pieces. I've been shopping at a market that has real butchers. They've got whole animals in the freezer. I can buy just about any part of the animal I want. I lack any passed down knowledge of what to do with most of it. I'm having to learn it all anew. That's a hugely difficult choice to have to make, requiring getting over squeamishness, ignorance and random lies, and most people out there just are trying to pay their mortgages, save money for their kid's college educations and otherwise just enjoy their short time on earth. They've got no time or desire to figure out what to do with a kidney. Why bother when the message is this stuff will kill you? Heck, the message is everything will kill you so why not just eat burgers and fries and tune it all out?

            Anyway, one thing I've learned from Quelsen's story is that if you see a fat person walking down the street you have no idea if that person has already lost two whole people's worth of weight or how much they've struggled. My own experience has taught me that, too. That's why I have no patience for people like Chacotaco and their "calories are the only things that matter" bullshit. If that's true, I should have been skinny my whole life. I wasted too much of my life NOT eating burgers and fries. I could have been fat and happy instead of fat and miserable.
            Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
              That's why I have no patience for people like Chacotaco and their "calories are the only things that matter" bullshit.
              Well, he never said calories are the only thing that matter. They matter but the quality of the calories matters as well.
              I enjoy his threads, they educate me, leading me to try different things and ultimately feel better
              Everything is bad for something - How do you feel today?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Mamchibi View Post
                ^This kind of thinking is precisely the problem.

                Look, I don't argue that some people are eating out several times a day. I don't even argue that some people choose to be overweight and unhealthy for convenience's sake. I do believe in the concept of personal responsibility.

                However, I don't think sentiments along the line of "fat people deserve it because they are too stupid to do anything about it" will help the situation. You don't know what is going on in the individual's life. Perhaps they have been unemployed for months and have to eat beans and rice three meals a day just to eat. Maybe they have an underlying health condition but can't afford a doctor, or worse, that the doctor they see has loaded them up on so many prescriptions that their weight is spiraling out of control.

                And while there are many who are overweight an unhealthy, there are also many who are overweight and healthy and many more who are normal weight or underweight and unhealthy.

                Ideally, health should be the goal and a healthy weight should come along for the ride.

                But this isn't Xanadu.
                i sometimes tend to ramble a bit so it is entirely possible i left a wrong impression.


                Nobody deserves to be fat.
                everyone deserves health.
                health is harder to come by today than it was 20, 30, or 40 years ago
                today illness is the gift of society
                most people are given few choices and fewer information to do anything about it

                I personally think most dont care, but what do i know about most anyway???
                Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

                Predator not Prey
                Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

                CW 315 | SW 506
                Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


                Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Gilleh View Post
                  Magnolia and Quelsen
                  I think people treat to fat people as to people that CHOSE to be that way.
                  But, for the most part, isn't that true? I'm not talking about people with metabolic syndromes (the minority)
                  No one ever put a gun to people heads, forcing them to shove another coke or/and another doughnut to their face.
                  Of course, everyone has their own reasons (emotional or environmental) but we are still living in free countries.

                  I'm going to say something that may piss people.
                  Please remind yourself that is my point of view, and I'm a hard-gainer.

                  I'm not talking about people who has only 5kgs to lose -
                  When I see huge people, it makes me sick. Sometimes I want to scream at them - "what the fuck are you doing to yourself?"
                  If a fat person sits next to me and starts eating a bun filled with (no cholesterol!) chocolate and coke, I feel goddamn superior next to him. He's going to die earlier, he has difficulties finding love in his life, he is or he is going to be sick, popping pills and visit doctors. And he's doing all of this to himself.
                  If my body is my temple, a fat person's body is ruins.
                  It disgusts me, I have no desire to know someone who treats himself like that

                  Is it shallow? Hell yea. We live in a shallow world where looks got weight (no pun intended).
                  Do I treat like this to myself as well? Unfortunately, yes. I'm a perfectionist, obsessive person. Many people are.
                  I don't hate fat people. It is just impossible for me to look beyond their flaws and try to get to know them.
                  No one is perfect and I'm sure they are wonderful people.
                  Gilleh, you remind me of my best girl friend, the one who everyone her parents included expected to marry me, but she was 5'7 and 145. a total knock out. Read my signature. she eventually did manage to find, in her own words, " he is just like you", except he was 197 - 202 and rock hard.

                  I actually have some affection for your thoughts, but you are wrong at the same time you are right.

                  people are ignorant. period.

                  most dont have the brain matter to blow their own nose as the saying goes.

                  proof? what do you KNOW that you didnt learn from media, social or otherwise?

                  any highly intelligent individual thru out time leads the pack never follows it. and most of them are only good at one thing there are very few true polymaths

                  we are what society expects and this isnt Sparta

                  when mankind figures out how to be humane with themselves and others it will be a great day indeed,

                  however we are in the halcyon days of peace love tolerance and fuck it all while the corporations make more money i am so damn glad i have my xanax and MTV ( or whatever passes for that these days) , now let me go back to sleep.

                  count yourself blessed to be partially aware, and then go out and find meaningful non damaging ways to make your space just a bit better than it was yesterday.
                  Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

                  Predator not Prey
                  Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

                  CW 315 | SW 506
                  Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


                  Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by quelsen View Post
                    Gilleh, you remind me of my best girl friend, the one who everyone her parents included expected to marry me, but she was 5'7 and 145. a total knock out. Read my signature. she eventually did manage to find, in her own words, " he is just like you", except he was 197 - 202 and rock hard.

                    I actually have some affection for your thoughts, but you are wrong at the same time you are right.

                    people are ignorant. period.

                    most dont have the brain matter to blow their own nose as the saying goes.

                    we are what society expects and this isnt Sparta

                    when mankind figures out how to be humane with themselves and others it will be a great day indeed,
                    By all means I agree I am wrong. But that's what I feel, even though I know I'm wrong.. and it's hard to change a feeling.
                    I agree people are ignorant for the most part.
                    I doubt there'll be a day like you mentioned.
                    I feel sorry for what happened to you with your old girlfriend, it must have hurt.
                    I've got self body image issues myself so I can't imagine going through something like that was easy.
                    But it just proves what I said. Looks is something that's too related to choice and health, and it's impossible for me to choose to be with someone that chooses not to be healthy. I'd be offended by her act if I were in your place, yet if I were in her shoes, I'd probably do the same thing.

                    I don't think we, as a society, are heading for a good place. The only regime we must agree to take upon us is health (rather than chasing kgs, fat or thin).
                    Everything is bad for something - How do you feel today?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      too right, we are headed for a bad place

                      and the primal shall inherit the earth.

                      it did hurt, but i was not unaware of what was going on. just didnt want to change them
                      Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

                      Predator not Prey
                      Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

                      CW 315 | SW 506
                      Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


                      Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I think looking good naked is something we are all too harsh on ourselves about. If the reactions I get from men are any indication, a significant number of them believe I'm going to look good naked (if they could just get the opportunity) even though from the perspective of the "media" (even considering this website as the "medial"), I am far from looking good naked.
                        I think it is a matter of the innate knowledge, it may be impacted by past experiences, other people's words, media, whatever. But atthe end of the day, if you do not look at the mirror and give a sincere noddy-nod "yep, looks darn good', no matter what your weight and BF% is, no amount of reassurance, no committee, no internal affirmative positive message is going to change anything.

                        Compare how we respond to an external trigger:

                        Most people are pretty happy about their level of intelligence. Call anyone stupid, and she or he will get affronted rather than enroll in a class, take an IQ test or demonstrate knowledge of 5 languages. Call someone fat - and s/he will likely tell you their weight, BMI, and the next night or next week will throw in an extra spin class, start an exercise program or 'start a diet'.

                        We have a better innate feel for our body imperfection than our mind imperfection.
                        My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                        When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by quelsen View Post
                          too right, we are headed for a bad place

                          and the primal shall inherit the earth.

                          it did hurt, but i was not unaware of what was going on. just didnt want to change them
                          I think so too. Everyone else would be too sick.
                          Thanks for sharing it, and good on you for your progress.
                          By the end of the month I'll post a before-after picture of me as well, going to be 8 months primal.
                          Everything is bad for something - How do you feel today?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            why not? everyone has different goals. i want a lower BF%. adjusting my intake is EASY. increasing my exercise? not so much. my muscles get fatigued and i don't recover for days. then i have muscle cramps in places that i didn't even work out, and fatigue for days. so exercise (gaining strength), i have to take slow and easy, or it impacts my ability to care for my family. this is regardless of how much or what i'm eating. but food? cutting back on food saves money and prevents me from gaining fat. why do you think most slender people are overweight by middle age? it's because they don't notice the weight creeping up slowly over the years, or think that a few pounds don't matter. then they wake up at 40 or 45 and realize that they've gained more weight than they have liked to. So why do i want to be a lower BF%? Because a lower BF% and higher muscle mass than i currently have is healthier and more attractive. it's my body, and i can, so why not? if lowering your BF% or your weight isn't a goal you're interested in, then ignore those posts.
                            my primal journal:
                            http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by EyeOfRound View Post
                              I don't *need* to lose any weight, but my weight certainly fluctuates and there are times when I realize I need to rein myself in. I still look/feel fine, but I just start noticing that a lot of my pants don't fit, the bras are getting kind of tight, and I notice that my performance at the gym gets worse, specifically when it comes to bodyweight stuff. Even 5 lbs makes a difference at pull-ups! I know my limit when it comes to how low of a weight I can maintain without going crazy and/or having skin hanging off of me. The second I hit 136 lbs, I stall and my body just refuses to lose any more weight even if I'm sticking to the diet 100%. I'm about 140 in my avatar and that's generally my average weight if I'm 80/20.
                              Don't *need*? No you really don't. In your avatar you look like, pretty perfect
                              well then

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Gilleh View Post
                                The only regime we must agree to take upon us is health (rather than chasing kgs, fat or thin).
                                I love this!

                                Heh, my original question was more about healthy people losing weight for the sake of losing weight. This has morphed into quite a different beast! I like it.

                                I think fat people staying fat usually has two causes:
                                1) Trying to get healthy, but not really knowing how (Ex: my mom who has been on and off weight-watchers for her whole adult life, wondering why weight-loss derived from eating packing peanuts and sawdust isn't sustainable)
                                2) Being afraid of failure. Setting goals is a very scary thing and change is hard.

                                As for LGN, it seems like such a shifting standard. If you're 100 lbs overweight, your LGN zone looks different than if you're 10 lbs away from this arbitrary goal you set yourself. LGN is more of a state of mind than a state of body. We're often too hard on ourselves, setting goals because other people tell us how we ought to be. Eat when you're hungry, exercise when you feel like it, and be happy!

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