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  • Ha-ha. What a mess. So many assumptions on both sides of this fence it's laughable. You are all a little right, and a little wrong. Somewhere between defining how fat a person has to be to be called "fat", and pretending that fit people critical of fat people's eating habits feel moral superiority, a rift has developed. Slice off the erroneous assumptions on both sides and we're actually all in agreement.

    As a former fattie who now looks healthy and eats well, I feel no superiority whatsoever. Mostly anger at a broken food system, and disappointment at how willing people are to just throw in the towel. Most morbidly obese people have been gradually gaining weight for decades. By the time that person needs a cane or wheelchair, they should be pissed off and angry enough to find the truth. When my entire body hurt for "no reason" and I was walking with a cane at 215 pounds, I was pissed off. Perhaps my life-long distrust in authority has helped me learn to dig. Mostly, I was just lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time often enough to build a decent picture of my country and how messed up it really is. Living in your car for around two years and hanging out with homeless people - because you are one - will teach you more than words can really express about social injustice, the victim mentality, missed opportunities and intentional self-destruction and motivations for such behaviors.

    From living in a trailer on beer and ramen noodles in my late teens and early twenties all the way to married and buying a home, I am an exception to the rule. The dice rolled and I got blessed, lucky, and a second chance that I did not deserve any more than any other malnourished-while-obese, marginally employed, under-educated person. It's come down to finding a mentor, asking for help, and admitting I was wrong about life, the universe and everything. I was able to quit drinking because rehab taught me how to think. I DID NOT KNOW HOW TO THINK. I let animal, angry thoughts guide my actions - uncontrolled, waiting to kill or be killed, while nothing was actually wrong! I had to journal my thoughts and let a counselor walk me through everything. And I actually wrote everything down, to their horror. I wanted the truth, I knew I was dying, and I LET GO of my rights, my freedom, my sense of right and wrong - because they weren't working. They were killing me. People who can't do that, who can't stop doing what kills them, I feel sympathy and rage for. I want to slay their demons, and I can't. And that frustrates me SO MUCH.

    It would take a whole book to tie this all together perfectly, but I hope you can see what I mean.
    Crohn's, doing SCD

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    • Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
      Ha-ha. What a mess. So many assumptions on both sides of this fence it's laughable. You are all a little right, and a little wrong. Somewhere between defining how fat a person has to be to be called "fat", and pretending that fit people critical of fat people's eating habits feel moral superiority, a rift has developed. Slice off the erroneous assumptions on both sides and we're actually all in agreement.

      As a former fattie who now looks healthy and eats well, I feel no superiority whatsoever. Mostly anger at a broken food system, and disappointment at how willing people are to just throw in the towel. Most morbidly obese people have been gradually gaining weight for decades. By the time that person needs a cane or wheelchair, they should be pissed off and angry enough to find the truth. When my entire body hurt for "no reason" and I was walking with a cane at 215 pounds, I was pissed off. Perhaps my life-long distrust in authority has helped me learn to dig. Mostly, I was just lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time often enough to build a decent picture of my country and how messed up it really is. Living in your car for around two years and hanging out with homeless people - because you are one - will teach you more than words can really express about social injustice, the victim mentality, missed opportunities and intentional self-destruction and motivations for such behaviors.

      From living in a trailer on beer and ramen noodles in my late teens and early twenties all the way to married and buying a home, I am an exception to the rule. The dice rolled and I got blessed, lucky, and a second chance that I did not deserve any more than any other malnourished-while-obese, marginally employed, under-educated person. It's come down to finding a mentor, asking for help, and admitting I was wrong about life, the universe and everything. I was able to quit drinking because rehab taught me how to think. I DID NOT KNOW HOW TO THINK. I let animal, angry thoughts guide my actions - uncontrolled, waiting to kill or be killed, while nothing was actually wrong! I had to journal my thoughts and let a counselor walk me through everything. And I actually wrote everything down, to their horror. I wanted the truth, I knew I was dying, and I LET GO of my rights, my freedom, my sense of right and wrong - because they weren't working. They were killing me. People who can't do that, who can't stop doing what kills them, I feel sympathy and rage for. I want to slay their demons, and I can't. And that frustrates me SO MUCH.

      It would take a whole book to tie this all together perfectly, but I hope you can see what I mean.
      knifegill right here is where i mean in your PM.
      Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

      Predator not Prey
      Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

      CW 315 | SW 506
      Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


      Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

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      • Originally posted by Winterbike View Post
        Pretty much that. It might be just a random association (I don't think so though), but the coolest/most interesting/most complete/most daring/most open minded people I know are all in great shape and take care of themselves. It's usually because they understand it's so important to health and happiness, or simply because their lives are balanced enough that they don't have to think about it and it happens naturally. Either way, they are lean and look good naked.

        I'm curious about something though. To people who say being lean is impossible without being obsessive and everyone who is lean just got lucky, what is your social environment like? It just baffles me that so many people think like that. I'm sure I'm biased because I'm surrounded by athletes all the time, but still, don't you know any normal-active-healthy-low-body-fat people? Because there are plenty of them, and they should be the norm (and they were before the obesity epidemic).
        I think you're biased because you're surrounded by athletes all the time. I'm surrounded by musicians and lawyers all the time; that's my social circle. Quite a few of them are overweight - sitting at a piano 8 hours a day doesn't leave a lot of room for other activities. Neither does sitting at a desk all day. These are awesome people who are focused on things other than health and fitness most of the time. Sure, they may occasionally go for a walk or get a workout at the gym, and they may occasionally think about eating "healthy", but they're not laser-focused on health and fitness the way your athlete friends probably are. They've got other concerns - preparing for an upcoming concert tour, learning a new piece of music, preparing for trial, volunteering at whatever thing they volunteer in, whatever. And yes, some of them are fat. Some of them are worrying about how to lose weight. Some of them don't care - they've got more important things to do.

        I'm one of those too, btw. I've got my health/fitness needs more or less dialed in, and now I don't obsess anymore. I don't spend hours working out at the gym, I don't count my carbs or calories or whatever. I just live my life, don't keep any wheat or sugar products around the house, and focus on things other than health/fitness. I'm staying reasonably slim this way, so I guess it's working. If there was any justice in the world, I'd weigh 300 lbs - but there isn't.

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        • i am sedentary and reducing weight.... just saying

          it is not easy to know how to eat and social pressures abound, but you dont have to run your ass off to stay thin
          Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

          Predator not Prey
          Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

          CW 315 | SW 506
          Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


          Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

          Comment


          • Originally posted by meepster View Post
            I think you're biased because you're surrounded by athletes all the time. I'm surrounded by musicians and lawyers all the time; that's my social circle. Quite a few of them are overweight - sitting at a piano 8 hours a day doesn't leave a lot of room for other activities. Neither does sitting at a desk all day. These are awesome people who are focused on things other than health and fitness most of the time. Sure, they may occasionally go for a walk or get a workout at the gym, and they may occasionally think about eating "healthy", but they're not laser-focused on health and fitness the way your athlete friends probably are. They've got other concerns - preparing for an upcoming concert tour, learning a new piece of music, preparing for trial, volunteering at whatever thing they volunteer in, whatever. And yes, some of them are fat. Some of them are worrying about how to lose weight. Some of them don't care - they've got more important things to do.

            I'm one of those too, btw. I've got my health/fitness needs more or less dialed in, and now I don't obsess anymore. I don't spend hours working out at the gym, I don't count my carbs or calories or whatever. I just live my life, don't keep any wheat or sugar products around the house, and focus on things other than health/fitness. I'm staying reasonably slim this way, so I guess it's working. If there was any justice in the world, I'd weigh 300 lbs - but there isn't.
            I disagree with the "they sit at a computer for 8 hours a day and therefore can't maintain ideal health" argument though
            I understand the "they don't care" argument. I enjoy physical activities and fitness but I will never be a good long distance runner because I think it's absolutely stupid and pointless and have no desire to become a good long distance runner.

            However if I was a bad long distance runner who wanted to get better at running - I would do what it takes to improve. At some point the will to change over powers the discomfort inhibiting it, or well... it doesn't. The region where people want to change and improve their situation but don't really do what is required is what is offputting to those who do take initiative and the grunt work to improve themselves. When people judge or disdain fat people I'd reckon they perceive idleness, laziness and stupidity because they perceive (or misperceive) active apathy in regards to self actualization.
            ad astra per aspera

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            • Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
              Ha-ha. What a mess. So many assumptions on both sides of this fence it's laughable. You are all a little right, and a little wrong. ...

              It would take a whole book to tie this all together perfectly, but I hope you can see what I mean.
              Yes. Top post.

              I'm officially fat YET fit ... having the lung capacity of someone 17 years younger ... plus I can walk several miles a day at 35 degrees C while narrowly avoiding frying my muscles due to hypermobile joints, as proven last week during the European heatwave. Yup, I'm very tenacious and determined.
              F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by meepster View Post
                I think you're biased because you're surrounded by athletes all the time. I'm surrounded by musicians and lawyers all the time; that's my social circle. Quite a few of them are overweight - sitting at a piano 8 hours a day doesn't leave a lot of room for other activities. Neither does sitting at a desk all day. These are awesome people who are focused on things other than health and fitness most of the time. Sure, they may occasionally go for a walk or get a workout at the gym, and they may occasionally think about eating "healthy", but they're not laser-focused on health and fitness the way your athlete friends probably are. They've got other concerns - preparing for an upcoming concert tour, learning a new piece of music, preparing for trial, volunteering at whatever thing they volunteer in, whatever. And yes, some of them are fat. Some of them are worrying about how to lose weight. Some of them don't care - they've got more important things to do.

                I'm one of those too, btw. I've got my health/fitness needs more or less dialed in, and now I don't obsess anymore. I don't spend hours working out at the gym, I don't count my carbs or calories or whatever. I just live my life, don't keep any wheat or sugar products around the house, and focus on things other than health/fitness. I'm staying reasonably slim this way, so I guess it's working. If there was any justice in the world, I'd weigh 300 lbs - but there isn't.
                Who is to say that perparing for a trial or an upcoming show is more important than your health? To me, my health is the most important thing, because how much other life am I going to live if I wind up with cancer, a stroke, a heart attack? It is a shame that for some it takes a momumental health crisis to realize the importance of taking care of your body, and caring about your health doesnt have to mean being an extreme athlete and counting every calorie and macro, eating whole natural foods, getting good sleep, drinking plenty of water and just trying to avoid all the toxic crap we are subjected to will do wonders....You can be fat or thin and still be toxic...you can be fat or thin and still be judged....

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                • Originally posted by TheFastCat View Post
                  I disagree with the "they sit at a computer for 8 hours a day and therefore can't maintain ideal health" argument though
                  I understand the "they don't care" argument. I enjoy physical activities and fitness but I will never be a good long distance runner because I think it's absolutely stupid and pointless and have no desire to become a good long distance runner.

                  However if I was a bad long distance runner who wanted to get better at running - I would do what it takes to improve. At some point the will to change over powers the discomfort inhibiting it, or well... it doesn't. The region where people want to change and improve their situation but don't really do what is required is what is offputting to those who do take initiative and the grunt work to improve themselves. When people judge or disdain fat people I'd reckon they perceive idleness, laziness and stupidity because they perceive (or misperceive) active apathy in regards to self actualization.
                  Well, but you can use this argument for anything, and there are only 24 hours in a day. How are your piano skills? You know, if you just took initiative and practiced only an hour each day, you'd be a pretty decent piano player in no time flat. And you know - making music is good for your emotional health, your mental abilities, and your social life. It should be part of any self-improvement regimen.

                  "Self-actualization" or "self-improvement" comes in many forms. It's reductionist to think of "self-improvement" as merely improving one's physical form. Shouldn't we also want to improve our minds? How many foreign languages do you speak? How are your math skills? How is your memory? How well-informed are you about current affairs, science, literature, the arts? How many sonnets have you written? For that matter, how much poetry have you memorized? Can you read Greek and Latin, and are you familiar with the Greek and Latin classics? Shouldn't a well-rounded person focus on their mental abilities as well as their physical abilities?

                  Really, as far as laziness and active apathy in regards to self-actualization is concerned, there's no difference between the lunkhead who refuses to learn to use apostrophes properly and the fatso who refuses to exercise. If your disdain is for the apathetic, you should feel equal disdain for both. If you don't, it just means you're indulging in the time-honored pleasure of bullying those who look different - which is fine on the schoolyard, but much less attractive in an adult.

                  Note that good manners are part of self-actualization.

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                  • Originally posted by Kelmar View Post
                    Who is to say that perparing for a trial or an upcoming show is more important than your health? To me, my health is the most important thing, because how much other life am I going to live if I wind up with cancer, a stroke, a heart attack? It is a shame that for some it takes a momumental health crisis to realize the importance of taking care of your body, and caring about your health doesnt have to mean being an extreme athlete and counting every calorie and macro, eating whole natural foods, getting good sleep, drinking plenty of water and just trying to avoid all the toxic crap we are subjected to will do wonders....You can be fat or thin and still be toxic...you can be fat or thin and still be judged....
                    Well, first of all, though we here on Mark's Daily Apple know The Gospel Truth about how to keep healthy, not everyone is similarly enlightened. Most people have already been damaged by following outdated and incorrect theories on how to keep healthy (remember the low-fat craze? remember the vegan diet craze? remember the calories-in-calories-out hypothesis? remember the low-cholesterol hypothesis? I could go on...) So, when someone decides that they need to Get Healthy, they may actually be doing serious damage to their health in the process. Chronic cardio is bad for you. Low-fat dieting is bad for you. Starvation dieting is really bad for you. Working out incorrectly, without proper guidance, is very bad for you. Yo-yo dieting is bad for you. Eating "gluten-free" cookies is bad for you. Waking up at 4:30am to go work out for 2 hours is very bad for you - you'd be better off sleeping in.

                    In fact, I attribute my current slim figure and healthy appearance to the fact that I never embraced any conventional theories on Getting Healthy. Jogging? Nah - too lazy. Going on some extreme diet the moment I see a single fat cell? Nah - too gluttonous. Waking up at 5am to go exercise every morning? Are you kidding me? Vegetarianism? Tried it, lasted a month, felt like I was starving all the time - no thank you. Fake sugar? Blergh. Calorie counting? Forget it. Mind you, I don't actively set out to ruin my health by eating junk food or smoking or whatever - but neither have I ruined my health by CW theories on "healthy living" (chronic cardio, low-fat eating, and so on). Those can be just as damaging. (marathon runners have heart damage similar to that found in heart-disease patients) Moreover, obsessional thinking, even if it is about healthy food, is very bad for your mental health - and mental health is part of "health", isn't it?

                    Secondly, yes, preparing for a concert or for a trial is more important than health - at least in the short term. If you make a living by giving concerts or by appearing in court, doing badly will wreck your career, meaning that you don't get any future work, meaning that you don't eat (healthy or otherwise).

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                    • However if I was a bad long distance runner who wanted to get better at running - I would do what it takes to improve. At some point the will to change over powers the discomfort inhibiting it, or well... it doesn't.
                      I can only speak for my experience-I get what you are saying, but what if you wanted to be a better long distance runner, but what you tried kept not working, leaving you getting slower each time? And all the "experts" had to say was "try harder".

                      For a period of about 5 years, I was lazy and apathetic about my health. The stereotypical "lazy fatso eating crap". Then the last 15 or so years have been a cycle of CW dieting that never really got me anywhere and with each cycle, required more effort. The last "cycle" was about 1400 calories of low fat vegetarian a day combined with doing the Insanity workouts (35 minutes of hard work) followed by an hour run 5 days a week, plus horseback riding plus a weekly run of 10 plus miles. When that amount of effort leads to nothing but back pain (after 4 months, no scale loss, no change in clothes fit), you begin to question if improving is worth it.

                      I think on this forum in particular, there are more people with my story- (fat and fit, so to speak), and we probably get more pissy then the general population when people start throwing around the idea that for whatever reason fat people don't make enough effort. Haha, you would probably be apathetic too if you had so little success working so hard. For the people here who are "new" to weightloss, and finding primal effortless and easy, you are LUCKY this was your first step on the way to health, because very few other methods are as easy and effective and actually healthy.

                      So yeah, I have been the both the woman at the grocery store buying brocolli, quinoa and tofu after a 15 mile run.... and fat. I have also been the defeated fat woman with frozen pizza and ice cream in her cart. That person you see may have given up after making an effort.... you just don't know.

                      http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                      Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                      • Meepster...I agree...with the tons of information out there on how "to be healthy" people could be doing more damage to themselves than good. And I also agree that mental health is very important for overall health as well....see, I was judging as well... based on what I have come to think of as healthy...and I what have come to value in my life. Personally I do not think your career should be more important than your health because if your dead you can't eat either...but I could get hit by a bus on my way across the street tonight...won't be eating much that way either. This thread could go on and on about my opinion this and your opinion that....it is interesting to me to read what other people think....we are all so different..

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                        • Originally posted by meepster View Post
                          "Self-actualization" or "self-improvement" comes in many forms. It's reductionist to think of "self-improvement" as merely improving one's physical form. Shouldn't we also want to improve our minds? How many foreign languages do you speak? How are your math skills? How is your memory? How well-informed are you about current affairs, science, literature, the arts? How many sonnets have you written? For that matter, how much poetry have you memorized? Can you read Greek and Latin, and are you familiar with the Greek and Latin classics? Shouldn't a well-rounded person focus on their mental abilities as well as their physical abilities?
                          I actually was graduated with a degree in Classics, translated the Aeneid and lots of prose, poetry over my seven years of studying it. I have traveled to 21 foreign countries so far, sit in front of a computer at work 8.5 hours a day and exercise with crossfit, yoga and oly lifting six days a week an average of 1.5 hours a day. I have being Prileo for 2.5 years now. I took the piano for three years as a child before realizing I hated it and could just listen to other people play music instead of having to do it myself. I am very driven to expand my knowledge, experiences, performance and growth in all areas of my lift -- health included.

                          So while I agree with your sentiment that an individual should be vested in expanding their limitations and experiences in all areas of their life, though once again am at odds with your insinuation that being healthy comes at the expense of education, culture and learning. You *can* do it all.
                          ad astra per aspera

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                          • Originally posted by Kelmar View Post
                            Meepster...I agree...with the tons of information out there on how "to be healthy" people could be doing more damage to themselves than good. And I also agree that mental health is very important for overall health as well....see, I was judging as well... based on what I have come to think of as healthy...and I what have come to value in my life. Personally I do not think your career should be more important than your health because if your dead you can't eat either...but I could get hit by a bus on my way across the street tonight...won't be eating much that way either. This thread could go on and on about my opinion this and your opinion that....it is interesting to me to read what other people think....we are all so different..
                            Of course! That's the great thing about these online forums - the free exchange of ideas.

                            I've been thinking about this some more, and I think I disagree with the fundamental assumption here - that good health requires "work" and willpower to maintain. The assumption, which I'm seeing in a lot of these posts, is a Calvinist one: our default state is fat and lazy, and the only way to maintain "health" (which always means "thinness") is by neverending vigilance and willpower and hard work. The disdain for the fat I'm seeing in this thread, and elsewhere, is the same as the disdain a medieval Christian would feel for the "sinners" - however "sin" is defined. They could be living a Godly life, but they are going to burn in hell because they just don't want to give up earthly pleasures - or to go to church every day - or to perform some other ritual that doesn't feel good, but that is going to save their immortal souls (such as, for example, refraining from gay sex if you're gay). Puritanism is alive and well, it seems.

                            Note also that the hypocritical concern for "health" (I'm not judging you because you're fat, I just want you to be healthy!) is exactly the same as the hypocritical concern for one's immortal soul that leads the Southern Baptists to picket gay people's funerals. They are not just being bullies for the sake of being bullies - they're trying to save our souls! See - they're the good guys!

                            You can also see this Calvinist mentality play out in the curious silence of the 'health'-minded bullies on the issue of sleep. Sleep deprivation is a contributor to weight gain - it makes people fat. It's also very very harmful to one's health - it increases the risk of cancer, heart disease, stroke, just about anything you can think of. But since sleep feels good, and since sleeping in is a sign of "laziness", you never see the anti-fat bullies promote adequate sleep; instead, you see them promoting the opposite - getting up 1 hour early to make time for the gym. Because that's unpleasant and a good punishment for the sin of being fat.

                            Personally, I'm not a Calvinist, and I think good health should be effortless. I want good health to be easy to maintain, and I'm structuring my life to make it so. I want to live in the kind of neighborhood where I can walk everywhere instead of living in the kind of neighborhood where I have to drive 20 minutes to get to the gym and jog on a treadmill. I want to have the kind of job where I get to pick my own working hours instead of spending 5 days a week fighting my own internal clock and depriving myself of sleep. I want to move my body because it's fun, not because I have to "stay healthy". I want healthy food to be easy to obtain. Basically, I want to structure my life so I can't help it but be healthy.

                            Interestingly enough, when I quit my 80-hour-a-week job to start my own business, and started eating better food and sleeping normal hours and getting enough rest, I lost 10 lbs. without trying. I did not feel deprived - quite the opposite, in fact. I did not add any self-flagellation rituals to my life. I just removed a major stressor.

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                            • Originally posted by meepster View Post
                              Of course! That's the great thing about these online forums - the free exchange of ideas.

                              I've been thinking about this some more, and I think I disagree with the fundamental assumption here - that good health requires "work" and willpower to maintain. The assumption, which I'm seeing in a lot of these posts, is a Calvinist one: our default state is fat and lazy, and the only way to maintain "health" (which always means "thinness") is by neverending vigilance and willpower and hard work. The disdain for the fat I'm seeing in this thread, and elsewhere, is the same as the disdain a medieval Christian would feel for the "sinners" - however "sin" is defined. They could be living a Godly life, but they are going to burn in hell because they just don't want to give up earthly pleasures - or to go to church every day - or to perform some other ritual that doesn't feel good, but that is going to save their immortal souls (such as, for example, refraining from gay sex if you're gay). Puritanism is alive and well, it seems.

                              Note also that the hypocritical concern for "health" (I'm not judging you because you're fat, I just want you to be healthy!) is exactly the same as the hypocritical concern for one's immortal soul that leads the Southern Baptists to picket gay people's funerals. They are not just being bullies for the sake of being bullies - they're trying to save our souls! See - they're the good guys!

                              You can also see this Calvinist mentality play out in the curious silence of the 'health'-minded bullies on the issue of sleep. Sleep deprivation is a contributor to weight gain - it makes people fat. It's also very very harmful to one's health - it increases the risk of cancer, heart disease, stroke, just about anything you can think of. But since sleep feels good, and since sleeping in is a sign of "laziness", you never see the anti-fat bullies promote adequate sleep; instead, you see them promoting the opposite - getting up 1 hour early to make time for the gym. Because that's unpleasant and a good punishment for the sin of being fat.

                              Personally, I'm not a Calvinist, and I think good health should be effortless. I want good health to be easy to maintain, and I'm structuring my life to make it so. I want to live in the kind of neighborhood where I can walk everywhere instead of living in the kind of neighborhood where I have to drive 20 minutes to get to the gym and jog on a treadmill. I want to have the kind of job where I get to pick my own working hours instead of spending 5 days a week fighting my own internal clock and depriving myself of sleep. I want to move my body because it's fun, not because I have to "stay healthy". I want healthy food to be easy to obtain. Basically, I want to structure my life so I can't help it but be healthy.

                              Interestingly enough, when I quit my 80-hour-a-week job to start my own business, and started eating better food and sleeping normal hours and getting enough rest, I lost 10 lbs. without trying. I did not feel deprived - quite the opposite, in fact. I did not add any self-flagellation rituals to my life. I just removed a major stressor.
                              A thousand times this.
                              Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

                              My Primal Journal

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                              • I have really focused on the weight loss because it was SO overdue for me. However, I am NOT counting calories or carbs. I'm eating whole healthy foods and enjoying every minute of it. People look at my lunch and drool! In fact, I usually can't even finish all my lunch at one sitting, so I keep some for an afternoon boredom killer.

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