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  • I totally agree.... Fuk-EM!

    Being Healthy > thin ........ is ALWAYS true.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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    • I don't know, I have a problem considering SB Hikes at 25% body fat.... to be "plump". To me, she has a healthy, lean and very strong looking body.
      Oh, I agree 100%, and I also think that now that sbhikes found her nutritional and fitness paradigm she will lean out with time. She has an absolutely amazing ability to wholeheartedly embrace the low carb-high fat long term & spends lots of times outdoors. Perfect.

      And we LOVE to make it into a moral shortfall for women to not be lean. My friend Suzanne eats like a PIG, drinks beer and is very lean. Somehow though, a woman who looks vaguely like the tribal women, with some junk in her trunk and a bit of a belly.... is seen as something akin to the 300 lb woman at WalMart. Unable to "control" herself.
      That sounds far too mean, I would avoid people who make such calls. The way forward is through self-experimentation, sharing, good nutrition, happy movement and hope, hope, hope!

      Back to work, now, lol. Only 2.5 hours before I can go lifting!
      My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
      When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

      Comment


      • being morbidly obese,along with type II diabeetus (6'2" 430+lbs) I was a little concerned with weight loss. now at 270lbs,and no diabeetus, I'd still like to shed some fat while putting on some muscle. While I don't restrict calories much(or even count them for that matter), I do IF and also eat till full. Its just been so easy, and have learned so much about what things make me just feel like crap (grains really do, I never realized). I don't even bother with grains, I don't feel deprived of anything except deprived of feeling like garbage. Most of the food is just SO good, I can't believe that its "diet" food sometimes LOL.

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        • I totally agree with the Fuk-Em! be healthy! attitude.

          It's difficult, though, to resist falling into the fashion-magazine mindset of "thin=desirable/sexy". From babyhood, girls/women have the media from every angle portraying that 6' tall, 105 pound women are what society values. Look at Barbie dolls.

          And for some of us, we also have parents who tried to push that value on us. I have never been overweight, yet my (abusive, alcoholic) father called me "fatty" and "chubs" in an insulting voice until I disowned him when I was 24. (I never talked to him after that, and I'm 55 now. He died when I was 45. I have no regrets disowning him.) My mother was on a "diet" her whole life, even after she divorced the jerk, and she wasn't overweight either.

          IN SPITE of being a strong-willed, stubborn, independent thinker, I still, on occasion, wish I could weigh less. That's a direct result of my father brainwashing me ever since I can remember (supported by the media). When I catch myself thinking "I wish I could lose a few pounds", I remind myself to give my deceased father's image the "Fuk U!" gesture.

          I'm 5'2" tall, and I weigh ~107. (I don't know exactly, I don't own a scale. That's what the scale in the doc's office said when I went in for the yearly female oil change and lube job.) I will never be thin like the media shows, but I'm strong and athletic.

          NOTE TO PARENTS: one of the benefits of having a mother who was always on a "diet" (before the days when the government told us what was healthy) was that I grew up eating meat and veg, with potatoes as a Sunday treat. We never had bread on the table, and seldom had sweets or soda in the house. So I grew up already about 60% primal... and I've never had a weight problem. Your kids may protest eating primally, especially if they're older, but stick to your guns: you're doing what's best for them! They'll thank you later! I raised my kids about the same, 60% primal, and I have a son who was on a Navy SEAL team for 4 years, a daughter who runs and rock climbs, and another daughter who's a Crossfitter.

          And a side note, I think that the way the media has begun portraying men in recent years is also unrealistic. Look at the male movie stars from 30 years ago, versus the ones you see today. Many of the male movie stars you see today have to spend more time staying lean and ripped than they do perfecting their acting skills.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
            But we look at primitive women and see all kinds of flaws and say ew, they look awful, they must be sick and diseased. Did anybody ever consider that some of those women might be pregnant? Did it occur to anyone that maybe thin arms, no 6-packs, no arm muscles, smooth, soft bodies with no particularly hourglass shape, little tummy rolls that hang over our grass skirts is what women actually really truly look like?
            Actually i think we glamorize both sexes. Women probably look that way because they spend a great deal of time in child bearing. When i was pregnant, all i wanted to do was rest and eat. few of the men have Mark's physique, which i think is more Greek god than indigenous. What do Mark and the ancient Greeks have in common? An abundance of food, a certain physical ideal, and time to train their bodies. The stereotypical Greek statuesque look was a sign of affluence, not for the masses.

            BTW sbhikes, i think you look great. not that it matters, but i do think you look closer to a woman on a magazine cover than a soft indigenous woman.

            Originally posted by lexie View Post
            Is it agricultural? Or is the changing practices for giving birth as well/instead? That might be a pretty big factor, I think.
            I think it might be. while at target the other night, i noticed the shopper behind me was buying depends. After i paid, while i was leaving, i slyly glanced back. the woman was no older than 30 with 2 kids. Maybe she was buying for an older relative, but i know that incontinence among mothers is more common than you'd think, and it's not just because of the number of babies. assisted births (forceps, vacuum extractions) are still quite common, especially with the rise in epidural use. I don't think C sections contribute to incontinence unless the OB accidentally cuts something which shouldn't be cut (not as common, but it does happen). Posterior presentation and assisted births can damage the pelvic floor, sometimes irreparably. high weight gain during pregnancy and inactivity can weaken the abdominal muscles to a great degree (a healthy pregnancy does this already). Most of these factors are first-world problems, but inactivity (maybe due to malnutrition) and inadequate protein could also cause the big belly, small arm thing, especially during pregnancies.

            sorry, i guess i'm rambling, i'm not sure what my point was.

            I also think that just because indigenous people have a more grok-like lifestyle does not mean that they are living up to their genetic potential. It's pretty human to want to be at leisure for as long as possible.

            i think it's impossible to live up to our genetic potential in every aspect of our life, so you have to pick and choose which areas you want to emphasize. maybe to you, it means being the most intelligent that you can be, which might exclude you from reaching the height of your physical potential. there's nothing wrong with that.

            Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
            Birth giving hasn't changed that much. Except for all those Ceasarians, the baby still comes out the same place in due course. And it's not like modern hospitals give you a tummy tuck right after the baby pops out.
            it's not just about where the baby comes out, but how it comes out. small generalization here, but if you give birth on your back, you are significantly more likely to have pelvic floor damage than if you give birth in whatever way is intuitive at the moment. the strength and health of your pelvic floor impact more than just orgasms and continence. It also impacts the way your organs sit in your midsection, which i think would have some impact on the size of your waist.
            I seriously think that we modern, Western women chase after an ideal that actually isn't all that natural. I don't care if you want to look a certain way, but to judge women who don't look that way, who look like women living in the wild, does a huge disservice to all women.
            qft
            Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
            I don't know, I have a problem considering SB Hikes at 25% body fat.... to be "plump". To me, she has a healthy, lean and very strong looking body.
            +1


            So yeah, if I can't be a Suzanne, I'd rather have a little junk in my trunk and be healthy.... I really don't believe that women at 22%, 23% body fat are somehow overeating or out of control or even nearing unhealthy. And I believe that throughout history, that the healthy women looked a lot more like SBHikes then like a fitness model.
            My god, 23% is now fat? yeah i don't think so.
            Last edited by Saoirse; 08-23-2012, 12:25 PM.
            my primal journal:
            http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

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            • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
              Yeah well then fuck-em. Me and my fat thighs, upper arm wap-wap and lack of washboard abs will be out hauling all that massive flesh around the wilderness. Give me a call when washboard abs become a requirement for health. Maybe there will be cell reception on top of one of those peaks.

              You're awesome!! Love your outlook!
              Life is not a matter of having good cards, but of playing a poor hand well.

              - Robert Louis Stevenson

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              • I'm concerned about weight loss because I'm technically obese, though I've yet to experience any of the side effects of that by virtue of being young, apart from the social stigma and dearth of dating opportunities. I want to be at a healthy (and more attractive) weight as I feel it will improve my chances of getting married and having a family of my own. My father's side of the family is also very prone to diabetes, and while I'm neither diabetic or even pre-diabetic at this point in my life, I know that my chances are even higher than most. I also view weight as a side effect of less than optimal diet choices, so making better diet choices should result in weight loss and if it is not, then I would be concerned. That's just me, but I suspect most others concerned about weight are in a similar if not identical boat (I didn't have time to read all 19 pages of this thread to find out first - sorry)
                Healthy Bucket List:
                • Summit all of Colorado's 14-ers
                • Hike the Appalachian Trail
                • Do a real pull-up
                • Run a 5k
                • Be "Hot For Training Camp"



                Check out my journey at Outdoor Amy's Blog.

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                • Originally posted by Goldie View Post
                  I'm 5'2" tall, and I weigh ~107. (I don't know exactly, I don't own a scale. That's what the scale in the doc's office said when I went in for the yearly female oil change and lube job.) I will never be thin like the media shows, but I'm strong and athletic.
                  Haha I think 107 for someone 5'2" sounds pretty slim . I was telling a friend my goal weight is 100lbs (well, 45kg cause I'm metric ) and I'm just 4'11". She told me I'd be "ugly and skinny" at that weight. LOL. Yes, it SOUNDS pretty small, but I'm this wee little person who used to weigh just that and who has never, ever been accused of being "skinny" (because errm... I really wasn't? I probably had BF% of over 20!).

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                  • Originally posted by Iron Fireling View Post
                    Haha I think 107 for someone 5'2" sounds pretty slim . I was telling a friend my goal weight is 100lbs (well, 45kg cause I'm metric ) and I'm just 4'11". She told me I'd be "ugly and skinny" at that weight. LOL. Yes, it SOUNDS pretty small, but I'm this wee little person who used to weigh just that and who has never, ever been accused of being "skinny" (because errm... I really wasn't? I probably had BF% of over 20!).
                    That's the thing--I'm not "skinny" at my height and weight, but compared to everyone I work with, and compared to 90% of the girls I Crossfit with, I am small. Last year I had my bodyfat % tested in a Bodpod (one of the more accurate ways) and I'm at 18%. I pretty much maintain at this weight, although I do have to be careful not to eat like my hubby does!

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                    • Right now I have a little too much belly and I'm at 29% BF (roughly). I look my very best at 25-26%. Any lower and it just doesn't look or feel right. But I'm a B cup with no booty, so it could reasonably be even higher for someone with a chest and some junk in the trunk. I'm actually a little jealous of women that lean toward the curvy. I think it can look really amazing, and no amount of nutrition or exercise is ever going to give me that.
                      Durp.

                      Comment


                      • It seems to me that broadly speaking, the men in this thread all prefer the muscular or curvy legs while the women prefer the skinny legs.

                        Please indulge me with a thought experiment. In one of the chapters of Sex at Dawn it talked about the difference between men and womens sexual responses. The researchers showed men and women (of various sexual persuasions) pictures of a variety of sexual scenarios (male-male, male-female, female-female, bonobos etc). They ALSO wired them up so they could see what their brain responses were. Then the subjects were asked them which scenarios aroused them.

                        What they found was that with men, their reported arousal and their brain arousal were the same. Men were turned on by any picture that contained their sexual target (e.g. a woman if they were hetero, or a man if they were gay).

                        What they found with women was... more complex. Basically women consistently gave the 'conventionally correct' answer verbally (e.g. liking the pictures with naked men in them if they self-reported as hetero), but their brain responses had little to no correlation with their verbal answers. Basically they gave the answer that they thought was right for a person like them, rather than what they actually thought.

                        Could something like that be happening here? Women-in-this-thread, if someone wired your brain up, and could detect what you *actually* think about those legs, which do you think you would like more? Would your 'brain' answer match the 'correct' answer of the skinny legs?
                        Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                        Griff's cholesterol primer
                        5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                        Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                        TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                        bloodorchid is always right

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                        • Well, I don't want the skinny legs, so I'm maybe an outlier, but as someone who's attracted to people regardless of gender, I can tell you that I also don't find the skinny legs very sexy.
                          “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                          Owly's Journal

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                          • Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
                            Could something like that be happening here? Women-in-this-thread, if someone wired your brain up, and could detect what you *actually* think about those legs, which do you think you would like more? Is it *really* the 'correct' answer of the skinny legs?
                            In my head, skinny = weak, and competance is a big turn on for me. Weak is not. So I'd still go with muscular legs on a woman, up until the point that they become "masculine" legs (like a few of the female bodybuilders that are quite obviously on steroids). Then they're not sexy anymore because they've lost the feminine line. But they have to be pretty big before they get to that point.

                            I guess what I'm saying is that I think women absolutely look best with muscle, but not with the harder, more angular lines that I think of when I think of a man's legs.

                            Make sense? Or rambling...
                            Durp.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by OutdoorAmy View Post
                              I'm concerned about weight loss because I'm technically obese, though I've yet to experience any of the side effects of that by virtue of being young, apart from the social stigma and dearth of dating opportunities. I want to be at a healthy (and more attractive) weight as I feel it will improve my chances of getting married and having a family of my own. My father's side of the family is also very prone to diabetes, and while I'm neither diabetic or even pre-diabetic at this point in my life, I know that my chances are even higher than most. I also view weight as a side effect of less than optimal diet choices, so making better diet choices should result in weight loss and if it is not, then I would be concerned. That's just me, but I suspect most others concerned about weight are in a similar if not identical boat (I didn't have time to read all 19 pages of this thread to find out first - sorry)
                              You know what's attractive? Knowing that you are worthwhile. Guys like chicks that can do stuff physically, the same way chicks like guys who are into kinds (in my circle of friends anyway).

                              I wouldn't put tooo much stock in BMI, I think that it's a terrible measure of individual health. I was technically 'morbidly obese' a couple of years ago (which is a total joke because although I was overweight, I was in no way obese). BF% is a much better measure of health IMO (18-30% for women and 10-20% for men).

                              I was talking with the wif about idea BF%, since neither of us is planning on losing weight, but we do want to lower our BF%. I think that women NEED about 8-10% more fat than men. So 10% BF on a man is about the same as 18% on a woman (which is really pushing the low end of what I would think is attractive in either sex). Currently I'm at 20% and she is at 29%, so the race is on between us to drop about 3%.
                              Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                              Griff's cholesterol primer
                              5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                              Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                              TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                              bloodorchid is always right

                              Comment


                              • Could something like that be happening here? Women-in-this-thread, if someone wired your brain up, and could detect what you *actually* think about those legs, which do you think you would like more? Would your 'brain' answer match the 'correct' answer of the skinny legs?
                                Heh, my response would probably set the equipment on fire with my preference for slender legs. Ye gods, I still remember how when we were 15 and playing a game of associations on the train on one of our field trips, one of the guys described me as associated with a guitar or a cello and made that effing 'shape' in the air. I remember my grandma slapping my things telling how wonderfully attractive to a man they would be... And all I ever wanted to be was a romantic, lithe, slender gal; and instead I was something over-ripe and ready for plucking or whatever. EWWWWWWWWWW!

                                Slender and muscular legs all the way for me! Maybe I could not figure out how to do it at 16, but now, now, I should be able to. I can finally shed the fat suit and have the inner and outer me who are not in conflict. I will HAVE IT. I will not LOSE HOPE. I WILL NOT! There gotta be a way, and I will find it.
                                Last edited by Leida; 08-24-2012, 06:45 AM.
                                My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                                When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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