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  • I think that it is just not natural for women to be at 18% or below body fat much after puberty. It's not beneficial the way it is for a man to be lean. The way women live to be at those low body %'s is not normal in terms of eating or exercise. I saw an article once on body fat %'s and the actresses noted at 20% or below had trainers and strict diets. I think if we eat and move in accordance with what our body says, it will lead use to a higher body fat % than is "aesthetic" in a modern society where even those with low body fats are airbrushed. We'd probably look like the tribal women.

    So really, the low body fats.... it's an aesthetic issue and the funny thing is that for most of us, we can't actually acheive that because the actual preferred look is very lean, but with breasts and a defined waist. Breasts plus a defined waist don't generally come with lithe, lean arms and legs. There are like 6 people in the world with full breasts, a waist and long lean legs.

    http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
    Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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    • Birth giving hasn't changed that much. Except for all those Ceasarians, the baby still comes out the same place in due course. And it's not like modern hospitals give you a tummy tuck right after the baby pops out.

      Does anyone have any hard facts about primitive women's diets? Or are you making it all up based on assumptions that women do not hunt, or would not catch a lot of small game and fish if they weren't hunting large animals, or that there are significant amounts of edible plant life available at all times and that men do not share their catch with women? Wouldn't all that baby-lifting and hauling around baskets of potatoes give them well-defined biceps and triceps? How come they don't have washboard abs? And come on, do the women in those pictures really truly look bad, diseased and sick to you? If so, wow, you all are sicker than I thought.

      I seriously think that we modern, Western women chase after an ideal that actually isn't all that natural. I don't care if you want to look a certain way, but to judge women who don't look that way, who look like women living in the wild, does a huge disservice to all women.
      Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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      • Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
        I think that it is just not natural for women to be at 18% or below body fat much after puberty. It's not beneficial the way it is for a man to be lean. The way women live to be at those low body %'s is not normal in terms of eating or exercise. I saw an article once on body fat %'s and the actresses noted at 20% or below had trainers and strict diets. I think if we eat and move in accordance with what our body says, it will lead use to a higher body fat % than is "aesthetic" in a modern society where even those with low body fats are airbrushed. We'd probably look like the tribal women.

        So really, the low body fats.... it's an aesthetic issue and the funny thing is that for most of us, we can't actually acheive that because the actual preferred look is very lean, but with breasts and a defined waist. Breasts plus a defined waist don't generally come with lithe, lean arms and legs. There are like 6 people in the world with full breasts, a waist and long lean legs.
        And it's body shape, too - even with low body fat, some people will never have a super defined waist, because some of that is how your ribcage is shaped. Just as some of smaller bones and other have thicker. Just as some are tall and some are not.

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        • Originally posted by Owly View Post
          Magnolia has some gorgeous pics on her journal thread. She definitely fits the curvy blonde goddess thing
          qft
          Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

          Predator not Prey
          Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

          CW 315 | SW 506
          Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


          Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

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          • I don't know, I'm pretty intuitive in my eating and activity levels lately and am having no issues staying around 20% on primal (including carbs even). At least some of it must be genetic. However, I have far more muscle mass than a Hollywood star.
            “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

            Owly's Journal

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            • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
              Birth giving hasn't changed that much. Except for all those Ceasarians, the baby still comes out the same place in due course. And it's not like modern hospitals give you a tummy tuck right after the baby pops out.
              I think birth has changed quite a bit from primitive times. While the baby still comes out from the same place, the medicalization of birth over the past century has significantly changed the process of birth, outside the issue of Cesarian. Think of twilight birth in the 1950s, to being knocked out by ether, to even now, many women being forced to give birth in an unnatural position. All of these things could stress/alter the body.

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              • Women were often given things like liver, particularly if they were childbearing/breastfeeding, because many primitive cultures knew that organ meats were necessary for healthy pregnancies and children. Not sure about other parts of the time, but I remember reading about how breastfeeding women in particular were encouraged to eat raw liver.
                However, growing of the baby and nutritional load consumed from the body is not controlled by what you are eating during the pregnancy, it is controlled by what you are consuming prior to pg. So, malnutrition through numerous pg most of which did not result in childbirth may contribute, as well as the whole loosening of the muscle experience.

                I saw an article once on body fat %'s and the actresses noted at 20% or below had trainers and strict diets. I think if we eat and move in accordance with what our body says, it will lead use to a higher body fat % than is "aesthetic" in a modern society where even those with low body fats are airbrushed. We'd probably look like the tribal women.
                Magnolia, I believe that a significant portion of our feeding comes from what our mind says, not our body. Evolutionary we are pushed to overeat and accumulate fat because of the fear of a starvation spell. However, in our prosperous society the starvation spell and seasonal food unavailability is not a yearly or daily reality. So, the overeating pattern is not applicable to the modern society of plenty. From the basic chemistry we also respond to stress by seeking chemicals in foods (though there are people who respond to food by stopping to eat, but I have known maybe 2 or 3 such individuals, while many more ate in response to stressors).

                What comes from the modern society is intolerance of even minor discomfort discomfort, the entitlement to instant gratification, the over-abandonment of food (and, here in NA of unbelievably cheap food).

                Hence, strict regimen, trainers, or awareness of when your body is talking and when your mind is talking. I believe that if we interpret hunger signals correctly, eat accordingly and move copiously avoiding boredom, a leaner body will assert itself as more natural than a plump one.
                My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                • Does anyone have any hard facts about primitive women's diets? Or are you making it all up based on assumptions that women do not hunt, or would not catch a lot of small game and fish if they weren't hunting large animals, or that there are significant amounts of edible plant life available at all times and that men do not share their catch with women? Wouldn't all that baby-lifting and hauling around baskets of potatoes give them well-defined biceps and triceps? How come they don't have washboard abs? And come on, do the women in those pictures really truly look bad, diseased and sick to you? If so, wow, you all are sicker than I thought.
                  No, I have read Diamond's descriptions of modern Stone Age societies according his records of women's fates in those societies, and it is not pretty & not conductive to good health. Have you ever read any of the Jared Diamond's books? Beyond the Guns, Germs and Steel?
                  My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                  When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                  • Oh, and while the diet of the primitive society is void of the man-made compounds, it may still lack grievously in sources of particular nutrients (most notably protein) since you stay quite local (hence explosion of population in some places and bare minimal of population in the other places). Look at the fallacy of a 100 Mile diet. Works great for someone from California, sucks for someone in most other places on Earth.

                    Also, most nature substances are toxic to humans and animals.
                    Last edited by Leida; 08-23-2012, 09:48 AM.
                    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                    When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                    • Okay, final post for the day, I need to attend to work more closely as unnatural as it is on a fine day like today. Ladies, I have no desire to dismantle your happiness with what you are doing, aspiring to achieve or have achieved. I am being carried away by the logical constructs, mind games and my own believes. But my believes, luckily, do not require for the rest of the world to believe the same. Have a wonderful healthy day, with or without 2-5% point difference!
                      My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                      When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                      • I don't know, I have a problem considering SB Hikes at 25% body fat.... to be "plump". To me, she has a healthy, lean and very strong looking body.

                        What comes from the modern society is intolerance of even minor discomfort discomfort, the entitlement to instant gratification, the over-abandonment of food (and, here in NA of unbelievably cheap food).
                        And we LOVE to make it into a moral shortfall for women to not be lean. My friend Suzanne eats like a PIG, drinks beer and is very lean. Somehow though, a woman who looks vaguely like the tribal women, with some junk in her trunk and a bit of a belly.... is seen as something akin to the 300 lb woman at WalMart. Unable to "control" herself. I know two types of super lean women- those like Suzanne who just *are*, and those who "control" and are disorderish about eating and working out. The disorderish ones are rarely actually healthy.

                        So yeah, if I can't be a Suzanne, I'd rather have a little junk in my trunk and be healthy.... I really don't believe that women at 22%, 23% body fat are somehow overeating or out of control or even nearing unhealthy. And I believe that throughout history, that the healthy women looked a lot more like SBHikes then like a fitness model.

                        http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                        Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                        • Also, since when did 20% become the maximum for health in women? My understanding is that anything under 30% is a healthy percentage for a female body. I think sbhikes looks healthy and strong and able to do the things she loves. I'd rather see that than a woman abusing her body into thinness.
                          “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                          Owly's Journal

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                          • Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                            I don't know, I have a problem considering SB Hikes at 25% body fat.... to be "plump". To me, she has a healthy, lean and very strong looking body.



                            And we LOVE to make it into a moral shortfall for women to not be lean. My friend Suzanne eats like a PIG, drinks beer and is very lean. Somehow though, a woman who looks vaguely like the tribal women, with some junk in her trunk and a bit of a belly.... is seen as something akin to the 300 lb woman at WalMart. Unable to "control" herself. I know two types of super lean women- those like Suzanne who just *are*, and those who "control" and are disorderish about eating and working out. The disorderish ones are rarely actually healthy.

                            So yeah, if I can't be a Suzanne, I'd rather have a little junk in my trunk and be healthy.... I really don't believe that women at 22%, 23% body fat are somehow overeating or out of control or even nearing unhealthy. And I believe that throughout history, that the healthy women looked a lot more like SBHikes then like a fitness model.




                            Originally posted by Owly View Post
                            Also, since when did 20% become the maximum for health in women? My understanding is that anything under 30% is a healthy percentage for a female body. I think sbhikes looks healthy and strong and able to do the things she loves. I'd rather see that than a woman abusing her body into thinness.
                            Yes, "under 30%" is technically medically OK... but the world will judge you fat. It is what it is.
                            Last edited by cori93437; 08-23-2012, 10:29 AM.
                            “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                            ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                            And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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                            • Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                              Yes, "under 30%" is technically medically OK... but the world will judge you fat. It is what it is.
                              Yeah well then fuck-em. Me and my fat thighs, upper arm wap-wap and lack of washboard abs will be out hauling all that massive flesh around the wilderness. Give me a call when washboard abs become a requirement for health. Maybe there will be cell reception on top of one of those peaks.

                              Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                              • Originally posted by cori93437 View Post

                                Yes, "under 30%" is technically medically OK... but the world will judge you fat. It is what it is.
                                I think you probably can already guess my opinion on that particular bit of judgmental bull.
                                “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                                Owly's Journal

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