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Dr. Mcdougall rips apart the paleo diet - your thoughts?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
    Chaco- Seasonal foods.
    Seriously. Over most of the world starchy roots and tubers are not naturally available for consumption year round. So, at some times of the year the diet would have necessarily been lower in starchy matter and higher in fresh vegetation, berries, fruits, etc., and in meat. They ate what was available. Starch was not on the menu year round except in a very narrow range of climates.
    If you can't find roots and tubers, that means fruit is in season. Neither run away from you, require tools to kill or try and kill you back.

    For the majority of human existence, we lived near the equator and near bodies of water. That means a temperate climate that was relatively stable. Lots of people reference Inuits and other cold-faring societies, but the fact is they were fairly societies. We required technology to relocate to cold-weather climates. We did most of our evolving along the African equator. This seasonal arguments don't hold up so well in context when you realize for most of our history we didn't go through huge temperature shifts. Roots and tubers are staple foods in Africa, far more so than meats.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 07-05-2012, 09:56 AM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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    • #62
      Not quit accurate...
      Even so, there are gaps between fruits and tubers where the majority of forage-able foods would be green vegetation or mushrooms. or other less sugary/starchy type foods. And where foragers would rely on insect protein rather heavily rather than hunted meats.
      And people groups were moving around quite a bit throughout out our evolution from quite early on as well... Not all of them lived in areas where specific tuber consumption is highest. Stop concentrating so much on single populations. Even near the equator there is a wide variance in foods and food availability. You act like there were just potatoes in the pantry every day. Not nearly the case.
      Also there was not technology in relocation for early man... it was called group growth. An area or group can only support a certain number of people before either foods get scarce (also due to yearly shifts in climate) or due to group sized someone decided to move off and form his own group (splitting). People then walk. Yep... just walk a few miles in a new direction until a new good spot was found.
      No one moved from the equator to cold climates in one fell swoop... it was gradual and over many generations adapting to small shifts as they moved incrementally.
      Last edited by cori93437; 07-05-2012, 10:14 AM.
      “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
      ~Friedrich Nietzsche
      And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Chaohinon View Post
        So, paleo = atkins = bad. Let me try!

        McDougal loves starch -> wheat contains starch -> McDougal gives me the shits
        Sheer ignorance on his part. This stuff just isn't around in the wild for much of the year over much of the planet. Besides, stable isotope analysis on bone shows that these people were eating at the top of the food chain, actually similar to an Arctic fox.

        There's no need to pay any attention to people who want to pronounce on subjects they know nothing about and on which they can't be bothered to look at the research that's out there.

        Why they can't just admit that their sqeamishness about eating meat is driving their whole agenda and leave it at that I don't know. God knows -- maybe their carb addiction, and the deficiencies in neurotransmitters that would be underlying it, is driving the whole thing!

        If one of these people had the guts to say, "I know this isn't in line with our evolutionary history; I know it'll probably be bad for my health; but, you knwo what, I'm going to do it anyway just because I want to" I could respect him.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Brent* View Post
          I don't want to turn this into a vegan attack but am curious what your guys' thoughts are after reading this article from him bashing everything about the paleo diet

          McDougall Newsletter: June 2012 - The Paleo Diet is Uncivilized (And Unhealthy and Untrue)

          Is there a chance Mark Sisson would respond to this article? I know the 'starch solution' book has just been released by dr. Mcdougall.

          also, this is a pretty interesting article as well:

          Paleo Diet Review: Pros and Cons -- Natural Health Newsletter

          I've always been curious about the consumption of meat and the acidic nature of it.
          fuck this guy

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
            You act like there were just potatoes in the pantry every day. Not nearly the case.
            Just to play Devil's Advocate -- it isn't hard to store tubers in such a way that they'll last longer. Bury 'em in sand and you get several months "shelf life". Creating caches of them probably wasn't hard for Grok. Hell, this is why root cellars exist.
            Steph
            My Primal Meanderings

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            • #66
              The Hunter-gather Diet Is Repulsive


              that was the end for me, so i didn't even bother clicking on the 2nd link. strident agenda much? jeebus.
              As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

              – Ernest Hemingway

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              • #67
                Originally posted by onalark View Post
                Just to play Devil's Advocate -- it isn't hard to store tubers in such a way that they'll last longer. Bury 'em in sand and you get several months "shelf life". Creating caches of them probably wasn't hard for Grok. Hell, this is why root cellars exist.
                Grok wasn't alone.
                Storage would likely attract more animals than just leaving the tubers where they grew.
                Plus if early man wasn't gardening tubers he likely wasn't really finding more than he needed to eat anyway.
                Maybe a day or two worth at a time... but not the quantities needed to see the people through the seasonal fluctuations.
                “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Lewis View Post
                  Sheer ignorance on his part. This stuff just isn't around in the wild for much of the year over much of the planet. Besides, stable isotope analysis on bone shows that these people were eating at the top of the food chain, actually similar to an Arctic fox.

                  There's no need to pay any attention to people who want to pronounce on subjects they know nothing about and on which they can't be bothered to look at the research that's out there.



                  This is true
                  Primal/Paleo is not for everyone, it's for those who have committed to understand.
                  READ THE BOOK! ...as Robb Wolf says: "Trying to convince people to save their own ass will burn you out."

                  Vegetarians are the enemy of everything good and decent in the human spirit, and an affront to all I stand for -- the pure enjoyment of food.” Anthony Bourdain

                  and yes, calories DO count my little piggies

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                    Grok wasn't alone.
                    Storage would likely attract more animals than just leaving the tubers where they grew.
                    Plus if early man wasn't gardening tubers he likely wasn't really finding more than he needed to eat anyway.
                    Maybe a day or two worth at a time... but not the quantities needed to see the people through the seasonal fluctuations.
                    I was watching Going Tribal recently and saw the reverse actually happen with a nomadic tribe as they were migrating. They dug up the squirrel's tubers cache and stole it.

                    Dairy products was big with these nomadic tribes herding their hundreds of animals per family (horses, cattle, goats, and sheep)

                    (This was in Mongolia)

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by bloodorchid View Post
                      my initial thought was 'who cares?'

                      upon reading, my thoughts morphed into 'this n=1 works for me, so who cares'
                      <--- this.
                      FaceBook: PaleoMusings

                      We get one shot at life, let's make it amazing

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Moochy View Post
                        Regarding the destruction of the planet due to food production: WHY does no one, vegan or omnivore ever realize the destruction of the planet is because there are too many people? People have bred like a plague of rats and no one wants to acknowledge that.
                        I think a lot of people do realise it. The trouble is that that doesn't actually get us anywhere. Unless you advocate some sort of extermination protocol, there's no immediate practical solution that comes from saying 'there are too many people'.

                        Me, I believe the long-term answer is in education, particularly of women (who then take control of their lives, and have fewer children), increasing people's quality of life in general (because when they know they don't need lots of kids for extra labour, and they know their kids aren't (usually) going to die, they have fewer kids), and increasing the availability of reliable contraception.

                        But in the meantime, for at least a couple more generations we have a lot of mouths to feed, not to mention an economic system built on the assumption of infinite population growth. And that's the immediate problem we need to deal with.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Dracil View Post
                          I was watching Going Tribal recently and saw the reverse actually happen with a nomadic tribe as they were migrating. They dug up the squirrel's tubers cache and stole it.

                          Dairy products was big with these nomadic tribes herding their hundreds of animals (horses, cattle, goats, and sheep)

                          (This was in Mongolia)

                          Sure they could steal a cache... but they had to find it.
                          It's not like having an all access pass to foods through out the year.
                          Tubers stores go bad at a certain point in the year... they rot, or begin to grow again, thus cutting consumption off for a time.
                          For early man to forage more than he could consume for a few days at best and safely store it, without attracting other animals, is just unlikely.

                          Dairy is neolithic... not paleo. I'm sure that's why you deleted all of that though.

                          Also... Lewis' post --"stable isotope analysis on bone shows that these people were eating at the top of the food chain, actually similar to an Arctic fox."
                          The scientific analysis shows that early humans were eating mostly animal products.
                          Last edited by cori93437; 07-05-2012, 11:57 AM.
                          “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                          ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                          And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                            Sure they could steal a cache... but they had to find it.
                            It's not like having an all access pass to foods through out the year.
                            Tubers stores go bad at a certain point in the year... they rot, or begin to grow again, thus cutting consumption off for a time.
                            For early man to forage more than he could consume for a few days at best and safely store it, without attracting other animals, is just unlikely.

                            Dairy is neolithic... not paleo. I'm sure that's why you deleted all of that though.

                            Also... Lewis' post --"stable isotope analysis on bone shows that these people were eating at the top of the food chain, actually similar to an Arctic fox."
                            The scientific analysis shows that early humans were eating mostly animal products.
                            What did I delete?

                            Paleo isn't about reenactment. Supplements are neolithic. They're still widely recommended in paleo circles. Robb Wolf eats dairy. Neolithic != automatically bad. Eat according to your genetic adaptation.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Dracil View Post
                              What did I delete?

                              Paleo isn't about reenactment. Supplements are neolithic. They're still widely recommended in paleo circles. Robb Wolf eats dairy. Neolithic != automatically bad. Eat according to your genetic adaptation.
                              In your response you had deleted the dairy bit... but my reply caught it before it was gone... or you added it after I started to reply. I went back and it its there again.
                              The first time the post appeared only the first line was visible... but when I hit reply I could see it had been altered.

                              I'm quite aware of the fact that eating Paleo is not a "reenactment"... but in a conversation where the diet of paleolithic man is being discussed you are dragging in unnecessary stuff by adding in neolithic practices. I drink some raw milk myself.
                              And the conversation was most definitely about the availability of foods to paleolithic hunter gatherers, thus most of human evolution, and the extent to which these humans had access to starchy foods (ie. not that much... certainly not year round and in great abundance which seems to be the assertions of some people).
                              Last edited by cori93437; 07-05-2012, 01:54 PM.
                              “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                              ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                              And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Yea, I too 'read everything' before deciding. I then got pissed at all the conflicting information, tossed it all away, and now I 'doeswhatfeelsgood'... which - for me - is Paleo. A few years ago, I did Atkins - and hurt myself in the process. If you do not eat enough fruit or vegetable matter, your "meat intake" will sit solidly in your intestines for a LONG painful time. I had to quit after four months and a LOT of Metamucil.

                                I would say - pound for pound - I eat WAY more veggies than I do meat, and the tubes-'r-happy.

                                I did McDougal many years ago - and GAINED weight. Go figger.

                                Not having read his words, my guess is that he's made some seriously large assumptions about what Primal eating is actually all about, lumping all folks who eschew grains and sweets as being terribly terribly misinformed. ESPECIALLY after the FDA report recently. <sigh - that WAS a sarcastic comment.>

                                Do what works for YOUR body. Throw all the books and lectures and reports away. Experiment along healthy, fresh, and organic if possible, and eventually you'll find that you're feeling, sleeping, exercising better.

                                What more do you need?
                                Last edited by RedFalcon; 07-05-2012, 01:57 PM.

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