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Dr. Mcdougall rips apart the paleo diet - your thoughts?

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  • #46
    yeah, I see these ladies all the time that I wish I looked like, and they are filling their shopping carts or baskets with grapes, yogurts and granola.... ectomorphs... can eat whatever they want, can't help being gazelles. Gotta be born that way.
    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
    When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Leida View Post
      yeah, I see these ladies all the time that I wish I looked like, and they are filling their shopping carts or baskets with grapes, yogurts and granola.... ectomorphs... can eat whatever they want, can't help being gazelles. Gotta be born that way.
      Indeed. Mesos, too.
      Lifting Journal

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
        Appearance is a terrible way to argue things like this, especially with small sample sizes.

        For instance, the guy below is a long time vegan who has to be very careful not to gain too much muscle so he can make weight. Genetics plays a huge role.

        True, but we're talking about the spokespeople for their particular diet philosophies. If the leaders of a food movement look like crap, that's not a very good advertisement.

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        • #49
          In the section called "The Paleo Diet a Nutritional Nightmare", McD makes the claim that "By nature, the Paleo Diet is based on artery-clogging saturated fats and cholesterol". Besides the fact that isn't true, this diet DOES NOT base itself on fat and cholesterol, to use the term artery-clogging saturated fats in this day an age shows a complete lack of awareness of the most recent research which is beginning to show no such correlation (not that one could ever be proven anyways). And while we're on the subject of research, from the same paragraph, McG continues by saying "Respected researchers find that those modern-day hunter-gather populations who base their diets on meat, such as the Inuits (Eskimos), suffer from heart disease and other forms of atherosclerosis, and those modern-day hunter-gathers who base their diets on plant foods (starches) are free of these diseases".

          Now, I believed that statement to be absolutely ridiculous but he DID provide a source so let's go check it out. This is directly from the Conclusion as stated in the study's abstract. the only emphasis is made by me:

          "High-carbohydrate diets, particularly in the form of high-glycemic index carbohydrate, have the ability to directly induce atherosclerosis. Based on anthropologic facts, the reason for these dietary-induced, insulin-mediated, atherogenic metabolic perturbations are suggested to be an insufficient adaptation to starch and sugars during human evolution. Restriction of insulinogenic food (starch and sugars) may help to prevent the development of atherosclerosis, one of the most common and costliest human diseases."

          The studies says, in plain text, to limit starch because they are insulinogenic. Actually, the study appears to state the exact opposite of what McG explains in that paragraph.

          So why should we not listen to him? Because he lies. It's right there. You could go and check the rest of his references but, if you lie once, I can't trust the rest of your arguments you present.

          I'm really hoping I just mis-read this or something so please let me know if I did. I would consider it disgraceful to have such a well-known vegan activist resort to deception like this.

          PS. It's ironic that he cites a study that goes against the very idea of his latest book "The Starch Solution"
          Living the primal lifestyle and loving it! On a constant quest of optimal health and living life to the fullest :-).

          You can have excuses or results -- not both.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Brent* View Post
            so what are your thoughts about the studies he concluded that claimed that paleolithic people ate more starch and vegetable based foods?
            Some paleo peoples might have eaten more starches, if they were available & easy to collect. I personally feel better eating lots of veggies, high fat, moderate protein & some fruit. At certain times, I crave lots & lots of meat & fat, & other times, I crave huge salads & steamed veggies & less protein. Sometimes I want fruit, sometimes I want nothing to eat at all. It's pointless for us to say we know what paleo man definitely ate in the past, but I know what I ate in my past. Primal lifestyle works for me coz I believe in it (the science) & I feel good (the evidence).
            "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
            "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
            "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Betorq View Post
              It's pointless for us to say we know what paleo man definitely ate in the past, but I know what I ate in my past. Primal lifestyle works for me coz I believe in it (the science) & I feel good (the evidence).
              This is a very good point. I don't care what Grok ate or what we think the paleolithic man ate. There is more than enough studies out there showing the benefits and most people do best with an n=1 ideology of self-experimentation to further tweak it. I think it's a very difficult to use the argument of what our ancestors ate as the only (or even the main) proof of why we eat primal. A lot of people poke holes in that so I try to stick to science and personal experience, much like what Betorq says!
              Living the primal lifestyle and loving it! On a constant quest of optimal health and living life to the fullest :-).

              You can have excuses or results -- not both.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Betorq View Post
                Some paleo peoples might have eaten more starches, if they were available & easy to collect. I personally feel better eating lots of veggies, high fat, moderate protein & some fruit. At certain times, I crave lots & lots of meat & fat, & other times, I crave huge salads & steamed veggies & less protein. Sometimes I want fruit, sometimes I want nothing to eat at all. It's pointless for us to say we know what paleo man definitely ate in the past, but I know what I ate in my past. Primal lifestyle works for me coz I believe in it (the science) & I feel good (the evidence).
                Exactly. His viewpoint is too narrowed. "paleolithic man" did not have ONE diet. Paleo-man had a wide range of diets based on what was available locally and seasonally. For some this may have been very much like Kitavan... for others very much like Inuit... and others somewhere in between.
                No single answer is 100% correct.
                Could some paleo-men have been gathering some wild grains, such as the wild rice gathered by Native Americans... sure. And did they eat tubers... sure! In the season that tubers were available of course (tubers are very seasonal in most climates). But before the capabilities of secure, cool, dry storage the percentage of the diet that these foods made up was probably pretty small in the grand scheme of things rather than the basis of it.
                “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by CSilivestru View Post
                  I'm really hoping I just mis-read this or something so please let me know if I did. I would consider it disgraceful to have such a well-known vegan activist resort to deception like this.
                  The paper he linked to seemed to be a response to a different paper about the role of carbohydrates in heart disease. I couldn't find an abstract or full access to the one that was linked, so I believe what you read was the abstract from the other paper.

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                  • #54
                    Ah yes I see that now -- thanks for the clarification. It appears that we don't have access to the actual study he intended to reference without a pubmed account (which I don't have).
                    Living the primal lifestyle and loving it! On a constant quest of optimal health and living life to the fullest :-).

                    You can have excuses or results -- not both.

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                    • #55
                      A) He implies that to eat a paleo diet you must eat rattlesnakes. They are edible and I would try them but they are not required. Also he implies that cannibalism was a paleo practice, which scares most people. It was but it isn't required to eat this way.
                      B) He lies outright by stating that a study done on modern, westernized inuits proved that saturated fat is bad. As "proof", he linked to a study stating that starches had atherogenic potential. FAIL.
                      C) He's selling something.

                      So, fear mongering and lying to sell a product. That sounds about right for a veg head.
                      In all of the universe there is only one person with your exact charateristics. Just like there is only one person with everybody else's characteristics. Effectively, your uniqueness makes you pretty average.

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                      • #56
                        So, paleo = atkins = bad. Let me try!

                        McDougal loves starch -> wheat contains starch -> McDougal gives me the shits
                        “The whole concept of a macronutrient, like that of a calorie, is determining our language game in such a way that the conversation is not making sense." - Dr. Kurt Harris

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
                          Appearance is a terrible way to argue things like this, especially with small sample sizes.

                          For instance, the guy below is a long time vegan who has to be very careful not to gain too much muscle so he can make weight. Genetics plays a huge role.

                          This guy has a great body and I'm sure he's an awesome athlete, but to be honest he does not look very healthy to me. He reminds me of the very serious high school wrestlers who have to starve themselves to make weight and then binge on junk food after making weight. They get a sallow skin tone and those dark shadows under their eyes.
                          Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

                          http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by jammies View Post
                            This guy has a great body and I'm sure he's an awesome athlete, but to be honest he does not look very healthy to me. He reminds me of the very serious high school wrestlers who have to starve themselves to make weight and then binge on junk food after making weight. They get a sallow skin tone and those dark shadows under their eyes.
                            That's because he's a pro fighter and cuts weight like a HS wrestler.
                            Lifting Journal

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                            • #59
                              This approach forbids starches, including all grains, legumes, and potatoes.
                              This immediately discredits the entire article. Total hogwash. We've been eating starchy roots and tubers forever and it was more crucial in our historical diet than meat. Amylase is produced for a reason in the saliva - NOTHING in the human body is instantized and converted into energy as readily as starch, and its digestion is so crucial that it begins immediately as it enters the mouth. This can't be said for ANYTHING, even meat. That goes to show you how CRUCIAL starch was in terms of our survival. To call a potato "not paleo" is like calling vegetables "not vegetarian." Lunacy. A diet of squirrel and potatoes is more paleo than a diet of beef and lettuce, absolutely 100% for sure. If you think early man was killing buffalo and eating salad you're off your rocker. We didn't have the technology to kill large game until fairly recently and if you think Grok wasted time gathering salad greens that provide 19 calories per pound, you have another thing coming.
                              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                              • #60
                                Chaco- Seasonal foods.
                                Seriously. Over most of the world starchy roots and tubers are not naturally available for consumption year round. So, at some times of the year the diet would have necessarily been lower in starchy matter and higher in fresh vegetation, berries, fruits, etc., and in meat. They ate what was available. Starch was not on the menu year round except in a very narrow range of climates.
                                “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                                ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                                And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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