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  • Originally posted by pdjesson View Post
    Wrong! as far as you initial opinion goes.
    Re the One Book thing...

    You got me thinking and remembering, and I feel urged to write.

    The only reason I left my chosen church - the only one I had had my entire adult life and otherwise loved very much - was because slowly, surely, almost insidiously, and for no obvious reason that I can discern, I came to my own realization that any church that says it has The Corner On The Market Of Truth.... doesn't.

    The One Book thing divides we humans from believers of "Other Books".
    The One Book thing divides we humans from believers of Non-Book beliefs.
    Hell, (heh, sorry) the members of any singular One Book cannot even get their shit together and decide how their chosen Book is to be obeyed, celebrated, lived-out in life, take your pick. Judaism is split, Christianity is split, and Islam is split - fact.

    This is not a pitch for the UU, but the only reason I chose to go there was because the members have sooo many different back-stories, present-day beliefs and hopes for the future, and they didn't basically care what I have in my head (other than a desire to see me live peacefully while at church) that it seemed a good respite from being at a One Book AND Only THIS Church place - much as I think that they still have an incredible amount to offer.

    God is supposed to be All-Knowing, All-Seeing, All-Present, All-EVERYTHING... and I got to the point where I simply couldn't see any more how this Creator could make it so the one-and-only-one ticket to Heaven / Paradise was through just this oooone Book and this ooooone Church and only if you do theeeeeese very specific ordinances (ceremonies, for ex. baptism) and even then, they don't count unless they are done with the assistance of only thiiiiiiiiiiis particular class of authorized person AND following thaaaaaaaat particular set of guidelines. So I have concluded that God is simply bigger than that and our understanding is pretty flawed aka very narrow.

    I am done with thinking that anyone Non-Whatever-I-Am is Wrong or Bad or Damned-to-Hell or Influenced By The Devil.

    So - I listen to everybody, now. I haven't read Rumi yet - he wasn't on my former church's approved reading list. But now I will look him up. I have heard that the poetry is beautiful, and I will see for myself.
    I have a mantra that I have spouted for years... "If I eat right, I feel right. If I feel right, I exercise right. If I exercise right, I think right. If I think right, I eat right..." Phil-SC

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    • Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
      I'm not animist in a religious sense. I don't worship any gods in nature. However, I find that science supports the basics of animism. I might be superstitious with certain things, but I don't think of that as religion because it is nothing I would try to defend or teach others. My belief system is as follows.

      -We are part of a bigger cycle
      -We have the lives of beef, grass, leaves, trees, etc to thank for our existence
      -We even have to thank Earth & the air we breathe for providing us with the "stuff" (or minerals, gases, and liquids)
      -When I die, my body will turn into food once again for small animals & bacteria, which will then turn into food for other small animals, then medium animals, then large animals, etc
      -We are not the gods of this world; we are animals just like birds and bees but with more complex minds
      -Physics defines the universe for the past 14.5 billion years or whatever.
      -Don't know, doesn't matter for this belief system whether the universe "started" at that point or it simply is another in a series of universes that go in and out of existence like a wave moving up and down.
      -Evolution is a result of physics, and it defines how life exists and why we exist
      -Life itself is the thing to be treasured
      -Ethics are there, but I couldn't just flesh them all out right now. They exist for me, my family, and the entire circle of life spoken of above.
      -Pro-choice on abortion, don't care who marries who, men and women are fundamentally different but both are respected, yes genders exist for 99% of the population so you gender-blind/pansexuals do exist but are the exception, don't care if people re-marry, poverty will never end with our current way of life, peace is good but violence is necessary sometimes
      -Humans were not meant to suffer in the sense that this question asks. The suffering we endure has all been brought on by ourselves.
      -Since religion=belief system=political views when you get down to it; my ultimate political belief is that all nations need to dissolve into way smaller localities so that people may sustainably live off the land again. The very basic parts of our interconnected world appear to inevitably lead to a poorer way of life and unsustainability. I also recognize that I am a country boy, not born but raised, so I do not mind if I live in the country over "here" while city folk live over "there" so long as they are able to do it sustainably. I highly question that potential because of the biology of how people then have to grow food outside of the city, food surplus always leads to population growth (unless people get extremely heartless and/or infertile) [of which I am neither], and population growth completes this reinforcing cycle with expansion. The only far-off excuse for such behaviour is a very naive belief that we can just expand to other planets eventually. Should we last long enough for science to make this possible, and should it be possible (this is the extremely naive part because it very well may be impossible), then cities could be a long-term plan for anyone who wants to live in them. I personally believe in living with people as well as with nature. You might call this a tribe, a rural community, or a permanent camper. It doesn't matter.

      (I'm answering the questions from beliefnet.com and adding a few of my own)
      Some of that I agree with, but do you not see any bit of the divine in humanity, seperating us from the rest of life on earth? To say we're no different than animals, despite being the sole known sapient and creative beings in the world, shouldn't hold up to normal observation, let alone spiritual inclination.

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      • Originally posted by Figlio di Moros View Post
        Some of that I agree with, but do you not see any bit of the divine in humanity, seperating us from the rest of life on earth? To say we're no different than animals, despite being the sole known sapient and creative beings in the world, shouldn't hold up to normal observation, let alone spiritual inclination.
        Eh? There were creatures wearing clothes, creating camp fires, fashioning tools, and burying their dead long before humans came around. These sapeint and creative beings called humans actually exterminated entire species off of the planet. Species that actually have larger brains than our own.

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        • Those "other creatures" were close relatives, arguably within our species. In other words, humans. As for "exterminated entire species", cry me a whaaaambulance. The loss of the Dodo isn't worth fretting over, and I can hardly agree with the undertones of mass culpabillity/original sin for the natural process of extinction.

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          • Originally posted by Figlio di Moros View Post
            Those "other creatures" were close relatives, arguably within our species. In other words, humans. As for "exterminated entire species", cry me a whaaaambulance. The loss of the Dodo isn't worth fretting over, and I can hardly agree with the undertones of mass culpabillity/original sin for the natural process of extinction.
            Oh okay, we must be divine then.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Figlio di Moros View Post
              Those "other creatures" were close relatives, arguably within our species. In other words, humans. As for "exterminated entire species", cry me a whaaaambulance. The loss of the Dodo isn't worth fretting over, and I can hardly agree with the undertones of mass culpabillity/original sin for the natural process of extinction.
              I both agree and disagree with this sentiment. The natural course of extinction and creation of new species is all well and fine; but we are, by your own admission, in a unique and unprecedented position of power over all life on this planet. We have the ability to kill off every large plant and animal on the surface of the Earth today, if we so choose (including ourselves, of course). With that godlike power comes a certain responsibility, both to ourselves and all life, not to exercise it; and I believe it is a mark of an enlightened person that he will regret any harm he has done to others through either malice or negligence, even if born out of ignorance, and always endeavor to heal it when possible or, where it is not, to avoid such mistakes in the future. And perhaps we can recognize that any animal of sufficient development will likely have some consciousness and sense of values, even if they cannot articulate them as we can; and that it is therefore wrong of us to unnecessarily deny other beings the natural expression of their own values. I'm not necessarily arguing that the loss of the Dodo was an unforgivable tragedy. But maybe we can admit that humans are not the sole and rightful arbiters of value for all life, even if we are currently the only ones who can have a conversation about it.
              Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

              My Primal Journal

              Comment


              • I was referring to the Neanderthal as an example of humans wiping out other species. I realize that is up for debate.

                But my main point was that there were actually other species of animal other than homo spaiens who actually had larger brains than our own.

                Just because homo sapiens brutally slaughtered these other peaceful intellectual species into extinction doesn't make us divine.

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                • I agree we have a responsibility to steward nature, but not out of some reverence to animal rights. The loss of species are only tragedies insomuch as our relationship to them, and nature, might suffer.

                  Originally posted by Grok View Post
                  Oh okay, we must be divine then.
                  Oh, no, I'm sure I'm the incorrect one. Your arrogant and condescending attitude has shown me you must be correct, there's no possible way you could have your head up your ass or anything.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Grok View Post
                    I was referring to the Neanderthal as an example of humans wiping out other species. I realize that is up for debate. But my main point was that there were actually other species of animal other than homo spaiens who actually had larger brains than our own.

                    Just because homo sapiens brutally slaughtered these other peaceful intellectual species into extinction doesn't make us divine.
                    lmao... you have a warped view of life if you think any creature in nature is "peaceful". Including plants.

                    Actually, you have a warped view, period.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Figlio di Moros View Post
                      Oh, no, I'm sure I'm the incorrect one. Your arrogant and condescending attitude has shown me you must be correct, there's no possible way you could have your head up your ass or anything.
                      Ah yes. Because clearly I have my head up my ass if I don't think I'm some divine creature in the shape of the God who created the Earth and the Heavens.

                      How did I not see that before? Perhaps I am just too humble. My humility is clearly a character flaw, because the almighty God is is an arrogant pompous ass. And since I have been created in his image, I too must be an arrogant pompous ass.

                      So, for now on, all human nature is divine. Like when we go to war. It's because God wanted us to go to war. These wars we are fighting right now are actually commanded by God himself because Americans are more in the image of God than Muslims. I think I'm starting to get it now.

                      Please give me some more of your divine wisdom so I can be more Godlike such as yourself.

                      Comment


                      • Ah, yes, the classic strawman- clearly you're right, we have no hint of the divine within us, or else you'd have the ability to understand written text.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Figlio di Moros View Post
                          lmao... you have a warped view of life if you think any creature in nature is "peaceful". Including plants.

                          Actually, you have a warped view, period.
                          You have no idea why Neanderthals went extinct, and neither do I. The difference is, that I'm not making the assumption that we are here today because of some divine plan.

                          Natural selection doesn't mean more God like species advance. Some plague could ravage the Earth and wipe out half the species on the planet including humans. Does that make the plague the superior godlike creature?

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                          • Originally posted by Figlio di Moros View Post
                            Ah, yes, the classic strawman- clearly you're right, we have no hint of the divine within us, or else you'd have the ability to understand written text.
                            How do you know that a Neanderthal would be totally incapable of reading? Homo sapiens didn't read anything for more than 3/4th of our existence.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Figlio di Moros View Post
                              lmao... you have a warped view of life if you think any creature in nature is "peaceful". Including plants.

                              Actually, you have a warped view, period.
                              For all we know, the Neanderthal could have been a pacifist species who refused to do any harm to their fellow hominids no matter how different they looked.

                              On the other hand, homo sapiens, were brutal savages who would kill other hominids and even eat them. They would sometimes even eat their own kind. And they would even brutally kill other homo sapiens and even perceived other races within their own species as threats and commit brutal atrocities against each other.

                              So the pacifist Neanderthal died out to the brutal savage homo sapien. Therefore divinity.

                              Comment


                              • Wait... so simply because we evolved with higher brain function than other species... we are divine???

                                Show me the logic please?
                                There are all sorts of unique species that have existed.
                                Species that evolved differently to fill certain niches.
                                Are they divine too because they fit so perfectly with the context of their environment as to be almost singular?

                                There were other species that existed that exhibited creativity.
                                There are other species that still exist that exhibit some serious thinking skills... problem solving and tool making.
                                They aren't even all primates like us.
                                Were/are they divine?

                                I'm honestly not seeing the leap you are making.
                                Evolution is the only necessary tool by which to see how the changes in Homo-species brain and and thinking ability changes occurred... so why throw in 'magic' via divinity?
                                It's completely unnecessary in this case.
                                No such leap need be made at all.
                                “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                                ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                                And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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