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  • Originally posted by pdjesson View Post
    I think your problem is that you make the mistake of trying to extrapolate the 'West's' experience with Christianity to all religious books/religions.
    No.
    I'm saying that ANY book, or unified set of beliefs, in which the text cannot be proven as fact is not FACT, or truth or reality or whatever you'd like to call it.
    I've studied on many religions... they tend to have that thing in common... a book of text, or a unified set of beliefs, that cannot be proven, must be taken on faith, and that they consider to be fact.
    The Christians have the Bible... Islam has the Qur'an... Hinduism the Vedas... and Scientology has L. Ron Hubbards later works etc... down the line through the ages.
    All opinions. Some of them pretty, others pretty awful.

    Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
    The closest that UUs get to sacred texts are some Emerson and Thoreau.
    I love Thoreu and Emerson...
    Maybe after the shunt...
    Last edited by cori93437; 06-29-2012, 11:41 PM.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
      No.
      I'm saying that ANY book, or unified set of beliefs, in which the text cannot be proven as fact is not FACT, or truth or reality or whatever you'd like to call it.
      I've studied on many religions... they tend to have that thing in common... a book of text, or a unified set of beliefs, that cannot be proven, must be taken on faith, and that they consider to be fact.
      The Christians have the Bible... Islam has the Qur'an... Hinduism the Vedas... and Scientology has L. Ron Hubbards later works etc... down the line through the ages.
      All opinions. Some of them pretty, others pretty awful.


      I love Thoreu and Emerson...
      Maybe after the shunt...
      I guess we'd have to come to some understanding of what we would consider/accept as Facts. I would start by suggesting that human experience is significant.
      All the best!

      PDJ

      The quieter you become the more you're able to hear.

      Mawlana Jalaludin Rumi

      Comment


      • Ahhh... because that's how you feel?
        No fact so vague "human experience" and feeling.
        What about the fact that other people have completely different human experiences and feelings? Are they wrong and your version correct? Or is their version correct and yours wrong.

        And because I prefer fact over some ambiguous feeling, because I know that feelings can be and indeed often are wrong, and that human experience can be manipulated and misinterpreted,... am I wrong to say I currently believe none of it is real because I have no proof?
        “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
        ~Friedrich Nietzsche
        And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

        Comment


        • The sad thing to me is that my religion doesn't have a church, so a lot of people don't even realize it is an option.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
            The sad thing to me is that my religion doesn't have a church, so a lot of people don't even realize it is an option.
            UUA is all the churches, and none of the churches... people will probably feel ya there. Check it out. (Falls under *awesome stuff I learned today*)
            Heck, even I'm gonna head to a UU and check it out if I can ever drive my Miss Daisy az around again.

            Also... You're Animist right?
            Animism is not exactly a separate religion in itself, but part of the belief system of many different religions around the world.
            You can almost certainly find people with Animist beliefs in a UUA... read back in this tread a little for peoples personal experiences... then do some googling. Good stuff.
            Last edited by cori93437; 06-30-2012, 12:36 AM.
            “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
            ~Friedrich Nietzsche
            And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
              Ahhh... because that's how you feel?
              No fact so vague "human experience" and feeling.
              What about the fact that other people have completely different human experiences and feelings? Are they wrong and your version correct? Or is their version correct and yours wrong.

              And because I prefer fact over some ambiguous feeling, because I know that feelings can be and indeed often are wrong, and that human experience can be manipulated and misinterpreted,... am I wrong to say I currently believe none of it is real because I have no proof?
              I don't whether you are prevaricating or being deliberately obtuse. I said nothing about feeling; 'human experience' encompasses an extremely large range of phenomena (fact, fiction, science, myth, travel, companionship, happiness, suffering, etc.)

              What do YOU consider (are willing to accept) to be Facts?
              All the best!

              PDJ

              The quieter you become the more you're able to hear.

              Mawlana Jalaludin Rumi

              Comment


              • Facts are facts... I obviously don't accept "I believe" as Fact...
                Things which are real and can be proven are good.
                Because a book says so... not so good.
                Science is pretty good at this sort of thing, though not infallible... which is why I'm open to believing new things when there is factual evidence... even when it debunks previously held theories.

                This about covers it...
                Fact   [fakt]
                noun
                1.
                something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact if you are afraid of being abducted by aliens.
                2.
                something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
                3.
                a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
                I don't know how it can be more clear than the example of scientists gathering facts... but see #4 also.

                These two are a bit more sketchy...
                4.
                something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.
                This one might need some explanation...

                Some declarations of experience are easily accepted as a fact based on several things...
                (Do I know/trust this person, is the declaration of fact reasonable, could evidence of the declaration be gathered to either verify or falsify the claim)
                For instance you tell me you have a cat.
                Ok, I'll probably take that as a 'fact' of your life although you could be making it up because it's a pretty general thing
                However, why would you? Also... if I knew you personally I could gather evidence to verify or falsify the claim.
                Cat hair on clothing? Evidence of a cat at your house (food, kitty litter etc)? Actually seeing the cat at your home?
                Your family members also talking about your pet cat? And so on...
                So sure, "you have a cat"... but I don't have Faith in your cats existence in any meaningful way. It either exists in reality or it doesn't and I'm not invested in that personally.

                On the other hand someone could tell me that they have an invisible Unicorn that follows them everywhere.
                This is not a normally real thing that exists... I'm not buying it.
                Furthermore there is no evidence at all that can be gathered to either falsify or verify the existence of the Unicorn.
                There are no FACTS to support that this is indeed a real thing, and thus I do not call that a reliable statement of experience.
                I don't have Faith in your invisible Unicorn's existence because it's a ridiculous assertion. It either exists in reality or it doesn't exist.

                5.
                Law . Often, facts. an actual or alleged event or circumstance, as distinguished from its legal effect or consequence.
                And this isn't about law... although the term "alleged" may come up I suppose...
                “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

                Comment


                • First, let me clarify a couple things. One, I didn't mean to put anyone down based upon any harmless element of their religion. I'm sorry if I did. If it was what I considered to be a harmful element of their religion or belief system, I wanted to argue why I thought they were wrong. Two, you can call yourself anything that you like in terms of religious following. However, I won't consider you a follower of x-religion if you don't read x-religion's text, don't follow x-religion's beliefs, and don't congregate with x-religion's church. That's just a silly argument because what you then have looks nothing at all like x-religion. It is a whole new religion of its own.

                  Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                  UUA is all the churches, and none of the churches... people will probably feel ya there. Check it out. (Falls under *awesome stuff I learned today*)
                  Heck, even I'm gonna head to a UU and check it out if I can ever drive my Miss Daisy az around again.

                  Also... You're Animist right?
                  Animism is not exactly a separate religion in itself, but part of the belief system of many different religions around the world.
                  You can almost certainly find people with Animist beliefs in a UUA... read back in this tread a little for peoples personal experiences... then do some googling. Good stuff.
                  I'm not animist in a religious sense. I don't worship any gods in nature. However, I find that science supports the basics of animism. I might be superstitious with certain things, but I don't think of that as religion because it is nothing I would try to defend or teach others. My belief system is as follows.

                  -We are part of a bigger cycle
                  -We have the lives of beef, grass, leaves, trees, etc to thank for our existence
                  -We even have to thank Earth & the air we breathe for providing us with the "stuff" (or minerals, gases, and liquids)
                  -When I die, my body will turn into food once again for small animals & bacteria, which will then turn into food for other small animals, then medium animals, then large animals, etc
                  -We are not the gods of this world; we are animals just like birds and bees but with more complex minds
                  -Physics defines the universe for the past 14.5 billion years or whatever.
                  -Don't know, doesn't matter for this belief system whether the universe "started" at that point or it simply is another in a series of universes that go in and out of existence like a wave moving up and down.
                  -Evolution is a result of physics, and it defines how life exists and why we exist
                  -Life itself is the thing to be treasured
                  -Ethics are there, but I couldn't just flesh them all out right now. They exist for me, my family, and the entire circle of life spoken of above.
                  -Pro-choice on abortion, don't care who marries who, men and women are fundamentally different but both are respected, yes genders exist for 99% of the population so you gender-blind/pansexuals do exist but are the exception, don't care if people re-marry, poverty will never end with our current way of life, peace is good but violence is necessary sometimes
                  -Humans were not meant to suffer in the sense that this question asks. The suffering we endure has all been brought on by ourselves.
                  -Since religion=belief system=political views when you get down to it; my ultimate political belief is that all nations need to dissolve into way smaller localities so that people may sustainably live off the land again. The very basic parts of our interconnected world appear to inevitably lead to a poorer way of life and unsustainability. I also recognize that I am a country boy, not born but raised, so I do not mind if I live in the country over "here" while city folk live over "there" so long as they are able to do it sustainably. I highly question that potential because of the biology of how people then have to grow food outside of the city, food surplus always leads to population growth (unless people get extremely heartless and/or infertile) [of which I am neither], and population growth completes this reinforcing cycle with expansion. The only far-off excuse for such behaviour is a very naive belief that we can just expand to other planets eventually. Should we last long enough for science to make this possible, and should it be possible (this is the extremely naive part because it very well may be impossible), then cities could be a long-term plan for anyone who wants to live in them. I personally believe in living with people as well as with nature. You might call this a tribe, a rural community, or a permanent camper. It doesn't matter.

                  (I'm answering the questions from beliefnet.com and adding a few of my own)
                  Last edited by wiltondeportes; 06-30-2012, 03:10 AM.

                  Comment


                  • I also think that belief is the very strength of a man. If you are to look at four of the main qualities of a leader: fearlessness, competitiveness, ethics, and smarts.
                    -fearlessness is simply belief that one will overcome any obstacle
                    -competitiveness is the belief that what is being achieved is of high value
                    -ethics is the belief of good and bad, right and wrong
                    -smarts is an ability, but it is also the belief that one has intelligence so that decisions can be made quickly and decisively.

                    The liberal world wants to be so careful because they are afraid of failure that they believe nothing. Without belief, the world is terminally cold and gray. I fear that many atheists, agnostics, and other non-believers of those total agriculture religions fail to realize the value of belief itself and the very things in life worth believing in. I also fear that this "strength of belief" keeps people stuck in these total agriculture religions, and they fail to see other options that could be just as strong (like mine).
                    Last edited by wiltondeportes; 07-01-2012, 12:55 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Here is a quote from Tecumseh that I find pretty valid to my ethos:

                      Live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide.

                      Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none.

                      When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and no thing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision.

                      When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                        Here is a quote from Tecumseh that I find pretty valid to my ethos:
                        Live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide.

                        Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none.

                        When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and no thing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision.

                        When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.
                        Holy crap (pun intended), I think we actually agree on something!
                        Durp.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                          Moderate, sensible...
                          First time I've ever been accused of that, but I'll take it!

                          I actually checked out Quakers, and there's a serious lack of them in Vegas. Go figure. There is a group, but their service is a silent one, and anyone that knows me will understand the impossibility of me sitting still and keeping completely silent for any measurable amount of time.
                          Durp.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                            Here is a quote from Tecumseh that I find pretty valid to my ethos:
                            Hey Wilton - I haven't come across that yet and it's beautiful! Thanks!
                            I have a mantra that I have spouted for years... "If I eat right, I feel right. If I feel right, I exercise right. If I exercise right, I think right. If I think right, I eat right..." Phil-SC

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by RitaRose View Post
                              I actually checked out Quakers... There is a group, but their service is a silent one, and anyone that knows me will understand the impossibility of me sitting still and keeping completely silent for any measurable amount of time.
                              I checked out the Quakers, too. Here where I am, there are numerous Friends churches.

                              I haven't tried it (the silent service thing), but I also researched Quaker-based Free Schools in my homeschool searching, and I have read many quotes from graduated students who said they were just like you until they tried it - and it turned out to be a great blessing that they continue practicing in their lives. Just FYI.
                              I have a mantra that I have spouted for years... "If I eat right, I feel right. If I feel right, I exercise right. If I exercise right, I think right. If I think right, I eat right..." Phil-SC

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Crabbcakes View Post
                                I checked out the Quakers, too. Here where I am, there are numerous Friends churches.

                                I haven't tried it (the silent service thing), but I also researched Quaker-based Free Schools in my homeschool searching, and I have read many quotes from graduated students who said they were just like you until they tried it - and it turned out to be a great blessing that they continue practicing in their lives. Just FYI.
                                Interesting...
                                Durp.

                                Comment

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