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  • I think that a lot of the problem with religion in general isn't the creation myth. The problem is that it distorts people's perception of death and allows them to believe in their own immortality. The truth is that every one of us sooner or later will die and then most likely in our society either be burned into a pile of ash or cut up, half ass preserved and then buried a box. Once this happens we shall be no more and the world will continue on just as it did before we were born. All life must end so enjoy your share of life while it is yours to enjoy.
    http://www.facebook.com/daemonized

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    • Originally posted by Crabbcakes View Post
      This is interesting. Even though we have atheists at my UU, I haven't yet learned that any of them were raised this way. I think a number of ours came to it through personal reflection / experience as adults. So I have to ask - how did this look like for you? I can't imagine children's storybooks... (friendly chuckle)

      ("Jewnitarian" - that is good! The self-deprecating humor is one of the things I really like about UUism. No sucking-lemons faces there!)
      I was also raised without religion in my primary home. Although to say I was raised strictly atheist would be a bit of a stretch I suppose. I'm of the thought that my father is more along the lines of agnostic of simply a sort of non-practicing Christian-ish thing because I know that he was raised Presbyterian.

      During the years that my mother was alive (up to age 7) it was the same with her best as I can remember... either agnostic or just non-practicing Christian-ish... she was raised Southern Baptist.

      I really cannot imagine that it was all THAT different to be raised this way than raised as a church goer. I did go to church some when I was on break from school and staying with relatives. I went to the Baptist church with my mothers parents, and to Presby church with my cousin and aunt when staying with my fathers parents. Father's parents were Presbyterian and member of the Masonic Lodge... but did not attend church much at all in the 15 years that I visited them... but remained 'Christain' of course.
      I somehow expressed my atheism to my father not all that long ago... and he seemed a bit taken aback and mumbled something... so I really think that he is still doing 'god' on some level.
      My brother, raised the same as me... also atheist.

      As far as childhood story books... there were so many. Some of my favorites were the favorites of any other small kid... Pokey Little Puppy and Tawney Scrawny Lion from the Little Golden Books... Stone Soup... The Velveteen Rabbit... and many others. There were no religious story books is all.
      Once I hit about 4th grade and ventured into the world of young adult and adult lit (I started with a book of Steinbeck novellas) the sky was the limit. I was allowed to read anything that was available of the family bookshelves. And my father, as awful as he was in many respects, took us to the library with him every couple of weeks and I was allowed to borrow ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that I found appealing, from some mildly inappropriate for my age adult lit (nearly got kicked outa school for reading Lolita on campus as a freshman), to science texts, to truck loads of Stephen King (read his entire cannon before I finished 7th grade, up to/including IT because that's as far as it had gotten at the time). If something didn't make sense I was told to look it up... we had a dictionary the size of an end table and a huge set of encyclopedias.

      So it was a little like being raised UU I suppose... I was allowed to search to my hearts content within all of the 'knowledge of the world' (arts, humanities, sciences, I even read about religion and sort of tried on a few hats so to speak) and come to my own conclusions.
      The conclusions I came to pretty early (and have never felt anything but comfortable with) was that there had been A LOT of religions, and all of them had these religious miracles, and most of them made 'god' sound like a petulant child, and it all sounded a good deal like the made up "easter bunny", "tooth fairy", "santa claus" nonsense that they tell kids for fun.

      And then I shrugged and went on with my life.

      I might indeed like a UUA... but I've never felt comfortable enough in a church before (too touchy, I don't like pretending to have beliefs that I don't have, and I'm not straight so that sense of 'judgement' is awkward feeling) to get into the sense of community though so I'm a bit at a loss for what that is like.
      It might be something I check out after they fix my head a bit and I can drive again (fingers crossed).
      It certainly sounds like the UU folks aren't the type to mind someone coming just to see what's up and check things out... without trying to suck you in and be pushy.
      Last edited by cori93437; 06-29-2012, 10:12 AM.
      “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
      ~Friedrich Nietzsche
      And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

      Comment


      • Hey Cori! Thanks! Here are a lot of thoughts, not in any particular order...

        My UU supports a once-monthly cafe-meeting in the church for the LGBTQ (are we up to LGBTQ-UCIA, now? - you get the idea) and family and friends and supporters... I have never been to the meeting, but it has been a fixture for quite a while now

        Thanks for your book path! - but I kind of was thinking along the lines of children's storybooks that specifically were written to formally deny the existence of a god. Kind of the atheists "indoctrination" answer to Jesus stories for kids. It was meant to be cute - I gotta' work on that humor thing of mine...

        I am not much of a modern adult fiction reader. I have very specific lines in the sand that I personally cannot cross as far as content goes. I can deal with factual information just fine, and have a love of the classics and Great Books, but beyond that, I guess I have enough childhood stuff behind me that I don't care to read the "rougher" stuff, and have a hard time understanding how anyone could actually write it. This "line in the sand" of mine extends across all media, so watching TV with me is going to be BOOORING for a lot of folks.

        Growing up, there were no books in the house. One, the folks were poor, and two, my dad had (and still has) the opinion that Book Learning is for assholes who can't do anything Real - like, work-with-their-hands-real. Funny here, because Dad was never successful as a "hand"yman either.

        Being in central Texas for the elem years, I got picked up a lot by the Southern Baptist neighbors 'cause the parents didn't go to church. Mom and Dad didn't mind as my US extended family is traditionally Baptist (not anymore though - I don't think a one has stayed in the denomination, even though all are in various mainline Christian denominations today), which is weird because my dad would say things like "I will believe God is real when Jesus comes down and strikes my ass with a lightning bolt!" (verbatim quote) My mom is definitely a believer, German Lutheran, but somehow didn't go either. But, as you well know, those Southern Baptists are a determined bunch, so I got a Baptist education growing up. Favorite part - the ice cream socials! Worst part - I didn't earn the Who Has Learned All 5000 Scripture Verses Before Vacation Bible School Ends gift bible; I am competitive in some things and this childhood "failure" bothered my poor young soul for a while.
        I have a mantra that I have spouted for years... "If I eat right, I feel right. If I feel right, I exercise right. If I exercise right, I think right. If I think right, I eat right..." Phil-SC

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        • 1. Orthodox Quaker (100%)
          2. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (85%)
          3. Liberal Quakers (79%)

          I wouldn't know how to explain the above matches to my mother, who is a very devout conservative Christian.

          I feel that I can be in line with Primal and be Christian at the same time, just because I believe things are up to interpretation. The Bible was written based on a human's interpretation, so why should I believe literally what he said?
          My chocolatey Primal journey

          Unusual food recipes (plus chocolate) blog

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          • Originally posted by Daemonized View Post
            I think that a lot of the problem with religion in general isn't the creation myth. The problem is that it distorts people's perception of death and allows them to believe in their own immortality. The truth is that every one of us sooner or later will die and then most likely in our society either be burned into a pile of ash or cut up, half ass preserved and then buried a box. Once this happens we shall be no more and the world will continue on just as it did before we were born. All life must end so enjoy your share of life while it is yours to enjoy.
            So you're an athiest existentialist then?

            . . . .

            Anywho . . . I'm a Christian. Definitely believe in God, but also love science and believe in most of evolution. The biggest difference is that I believe rather than cosmic accident stumbling through space leading to humans I believe evolution is part of a brilliant design to our universe. I also find the science behind primal/paleo convincing and beyond the science it also aligns very well with my own lifestyle and values in terms of being a humane omnivore, trying live earth-friendly and enjoying the outdoors.
            Healthy Bucket List:
            • Summit all of Colorado's 14-ers
            • Hike the Appalachian Trail
            • Do a real pull-up
            • Run a 5k
            • Be "Hot For Training Camp"



            Check out my journey at Outdoor Amy's Blog.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sihana
              Very spot on, and this view also makes people very short-sighted in regards to their decisions while on this planet. They live a certain way while waiting for the "next life," consequences be damned to the next generation. Those who realistically feel that they will be around for only 80-90 years, tend to make the most of life and think about their legacy, as they know they can do nothing about it afterwards.

              A religious person who believes in the afterlife, also tends to believe they can "look down" upon the physical plane, and in some cases, even influence it. "I'll see the consequences of my actions after I die," sums it up quite nicely.
              This. This. This.

              I, by nature, am a tree-hugger, and it hurt my understanding to no end to be in church and have this attude all around me. I see the Earth as one of God's creations, therefore "holy" if you will, and I cannot see how lots of folks just can't see that it falls under the rubric of Stewardship, just like donations / tithes would be. (yeah, I know about the whole "dominion" verse thing)

              One of the biggest blasts of fresh air I have gotten was the first stop on my personal Comparative Religions study - paganism. THERE I finally found a love of the Earth. (Not a pagan myself, but really, truly, appreciated their Earth ethic!)
              I have a mantra that I have spouted for years... "If I eat right, I feel right. If I feel right, I exercise right. If I exercise right, I think right. If I think right, I eat right..." Phil-SC

              Comment


              • The reason that I speak up about that subject rather than hold my peace is that I've seen that belief influence people's poor life decisions. A cousin of mine killed himself when he was fifteen. He said goodbye to his mother and sister, went to a cemetery and shot himself over an open bible. He believed that he would be going to a better place. Religion can be good if it brings comfort to people and causes them to treat other people well, but don't be conned out of living your life.
                http://www.facebook.com/daemonized

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                • Originally posted by OutdoorAmy View Post
                  So you're an athiest existentialist then?.
                  Fair enough and a realist as well.
                  http://www.facebook.com/daemonized

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Daemonized View Post
                    The reason that I speak up about that subject rather than hold my peace is that I've seen that belief influence people's poor life decisions. A cousin of mine killed himself when he was fifteen. He said goodbye to his mother and sister, went to a cemetery and shot himself over an open bible. He believed that he would be going to a better place. Religion can be good if it brings comfort to people and causes them to treat other people well, but don't be conned out of living your life.
                    Yeah, it gets really hard when discussing religion. In my case, it did a world of good. I didn't believe that people were worthy of my trust - and my church stuck with me, and LIVED the good life (not just talk) until it was inescapable to even me that trustworthiness did exist, and right under my own nose, too.

                    I'm really sorry about your cousin. But you are absolutely right - "...don't be conned out of living your life."
                    I have a mantra that I have spouted for years... "If I eat right, I feel right. If I feel right, I exercise right. If I exercise right, I think right. If I think right, I eat right..." Phil-SC

                    Comment


                    • I'm not sure if this has already been stated somewhere in the thread (38 pages is a lot to read through) but here are some of my thoughts.
                      Putting my personal beliefs aside, I believe that PB can be supported from a religious/creationist point of view just as it can from a natural selection/creationist point of view. Mark already has the natural selection part handled but in terms of creation, most religions ascribe to the notion that humans were created in this form by some "higher being". If you believe that no modifications to this original design have occurred over time, then isn't it reasonable that we should lead a lifestyle that takes full advantage of the original design?

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                      • Originally posted by Daemonized View Post
                        The reason that I speak up about that subject rather than hold my peace is that I've seen that belief influence people's poor life decisions. A cousin of mine killed himself when he was fifteen. He said goodbye to his mother and sister, went to a cemetery and shot himself over an open bible. He believed that he would be going to a better place. Religion can be good if it brings comfort to people and causes them to treat other people well, but don't be conned out of living your life.
                        I agree with this and your earlier statement about death/afterlife as well.

                        My aunt and uncle lost their 13y/o only son in a very strange freak accident. Previously they were basically agnostic, both very scientifically minded people. After the son's death it was obviously very hard for them. They had had the son a bit late in life and had the tubes tied afterward. They decided that they would do whatever they had to to have more children then and used donor eggs, fertility treatments, and my uncle's sperm to have a set of twins at almost 50. Then they threw themselves into the church. And I can totally see that temptation. For them that works. Having the twins didn't really 'replace' the son, and they don't want to lose the connection to him. They are joyous in their new found religiousness... they are happy doing community and church work and feel that they will be reunited as a whole family with the dead son in the future.
                        It really is a pretty picture. And I see that it would be an easy one to grasp at when there is pain.

                        However... in many ways I'm in the same boat. My mother was killed when I was young and I had mountains of pain over that for years. It still hurts to think of her as 'gone', mostly because I've missed out on knowing her. Who doesn't with for a mom to makes things better when your in a rut sometimes. Speaking of idealized mothers obviously as I never actually knew mine. However, I know that she is gone. Dead, preserved, buried... decomposed by now... and that there is nothing else.
                        There have been times in my life that I have been slightly jealous of people who believe in their deepest heart of hearts that they will be reunited in glorious perfection with their loved ones. I also know that according to some religions, even some denominations of Christianity, my mother would now be in hell sooo...

                        Lie I said... it's a pretty picture to paint, but that doesn't make it real.

                        I've also known many people (most religious people I know fall into this category to some extent) for whom religion engenders fear and loathing of anything that is outside the boundaries of what is prescribes as acceptable within their church, even in themselves. This is really, deeply hurtful to people IMO. A very destructive function of religion.
                        “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                        ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                        And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

                        Comment


                        • 1. Jehovah's Witness (100%)
                          2. Orthodox Judaism (99%)
                          3. Hinduism (95%)

                          Well, that was unexpected...

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                          • Originally posted by Figlio di Moros View Post
                            We should get together and go door to door.
                            If I just said LOL, I lied. Do or do not. There is no try.

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                            • 1. UU
                              2. NeoPagan
                              3. New Age

                              hmmm. The only church I ever felt "right" in was at a memorial service at a UU church. There ya go.

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