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  • The only way you believe in the religion of our society (in any of its many forms) is if you think "people are flawed", "I am exceptional" (knowing the one right way to live), and "more of anything will solve the problem of not enough."

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    • I believe God exists, due to life experiences that I have trouble explaining in known scientific ways, and I'm a bit of a research geek. I'm not trying to prove God exists to anyone because it's pretty pointless. I'm merely trying to prove that you can't really prove God doesn't exist either. And that the idea that there's no good reason for God to exist is a really terrible argument for God's non-existance.

      I honestly don't care whether anyone else think's there's a God or not. I full support each individual's right to believe whatever they want. Doesn't bother me a bit. I'm merely stating that saying there's no need for a God-figure will not prove God doesn't exist.

      What I find amusing is that the stereotypical Christian is always shown as proselytizing left and right, trying to convert everyone within the sound of their voice. Seems every time we have one of these threads, it goes completely the other way.
      Durp.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Grok View Post
        Why do you think there was such a scarcity of women such that gangs of men would have to invade tribes who had a few precious women?

        And I don't think the women would be fighting the ostriches for their eggs and climbing fifty feet up a treacherous trees to get at birds nests, etc. Remember, we are talking about before the domestication of animals some 30,000 years or so ago. Do you really think eggs were so easy to come by that you could just pluck them off the ground as you walked by? How easy do you think fishing was back in the day? I'm sure they weren't kicking back sipping a brew while casting a line on a fishing pole and a worm on a hook.
        Why do YOU assume that simply because a particular food-gathering task is more difficult than driving to the grocery store, that women would necessarily be unable or unwilling to do it? Have you never heard of ground-nesting birds? Snare traps? Rock traps? Basket traps? Tickling for fish? Nets? Fishing baskets? Fish corrals? Pit traps? Paleolithic peoples had all of these things and more besides. Their technology was rich and sophisticated and their knowledge and skills advanced. You have a distinct lack of imagination when it comes to what people, male or female, are capable of.

        My thought that men were more necessary for defense than they were for sustenance comes from my knowledge of reports of contemporary hunting-gathering societies, in which murder is a leading cause of death among males, inter-group raiding, rape, and kidnapping are common, and a significant proportion of men's mental time and energy is spent on the state of perpetual background warfare that exists with their neighbors. It's not necessarily about a "shortage" of women in one group. It's about playing a millennia-long survival game, and any stable strategy in that game involves preparations for violence. Any group that abandoned violence entirely would gain a short-term advantage in productivity but would run a much higher risk of being annihilated in one fell swoop by their more-violent neighbors.

        And that's where men come in. One of the few areas where men have a true advantage over women is fighting and warfare. The other is likely in big-game hunting, which not-coincidentally shares much of its skillset with warfare, especially primitive warfare. Teamwork, cooperation, bravery, skill with weapons, stealth, intelligence and tracking all overlap between the two. My theory, then, is twofold:

        One, men are not necessary to the day-to-day operation of a tribal society. Women can competently and efficiently care for children, build fires and shelters, gather plant food, fish, hunt small game, etc. without any men at all. However, because men exist, and are good at violence, it is necessary to have them around for protection from non-related men. In order to effectively defend the tribe, however, the men must be capable of fighting in coordinated groups and possess both weapons capable of taking down large animals (other men) and the skills to use them. The manufacture of weapons and the training necessary to employ them, however, is time that is NOT spent obtaining food, caring for children, building shelters, or otherwise providing for daily needs. So the men, while necessary, are a resource hog. They also require more food than women to supply their larger bodies, making the problem even worse.

        Enter hunting, the second half of the equation. Weapons that can kill people can also kill other large animals. And as I mentioned above, hunting requires many of the same skills as guerilla warfare. It is less efficient than gathering if you are looking at it strictly as a way to obtain food. But that is not all it does. It also builds the hunting party into a cohesive unit, builds bonds of trust, encourages bravery for the sake of the group, and hones the skills necessary for hunting and war. So if you pull back and look at it from a broader perspective, it's actually a very efficient strategy that allows men to train and prepare for their most essential role, fighting, while simultaneously reducing the load on the women by occasionally providing additional high-quality food.

        In this light it also makes complete sense that the most skilled hunters are often the ones held in high esteem by the women and have the most mate opportunities--because the women are breeding the men to be effective fighters, and the best way to do that in lieu of actually getting into lots of fights (which it is rational to avoid as much as possible), is to test them by their hunting prowess.
        Last edited by Uncephalized; 06-23-2012, 12:44 PM.
        Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

        My Primal Journal

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        • Originally posted by RitaRose View Post
          I believe God exists, due to life experiences that I have trouble explaining in known scientific ways, and I'm a bit of a research geek. I'm not trying to prove God exists to anyone because it's pretty pointless. I'm merely trying to prove that you can't really prove God doesn't exist either. And that the idea that there's no good reason for God to exist is a really terrible argument for God's non-existance.

          I honestly don't care whether anyone else think's there's a God or not. I full support each individual's right to believe whatever they want. Doesn't bother me a bit. I'm merely stating that saying there's no need for a God-figure will not prove God doesn't exist.

          What I find amusing is that the stereotypical Christian is always shown as proselytizing left and right, trying to convert everyone within the sound of their voice. Seems every time we have one of these threads, it goes completely the other way.
          I don't like the politically-correct attitude of just being quiet when everyone talks about what they believe in. I speak up not because I want to control their lives or their thoughts. I speak up because their beliefs end up perpetuating a cycle that causes damage to the world and to me.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Uncephalized View Post
            -Snip-

            In this light it also makes complete sense that the most skilled hunters are often the ones held in high esteem by the women and have the most mate opportunities--because the women are breeding the men to be effective fighters, and the best way to do that in lieu of actually getting into lots of fights (which it is rational to avoid as much as possible), is to test them by their hunting prowess.
            That was really well put. It kind of makes me feel sad...

            Just kidding. The only thing I would add is that women evolved to have men doing work and living in their tribe. If women became capable of having babies without sex and kicked all men out, I think they would struggle and most groups would fail. Despite them not needing men conceptually in a survival game, they need men in a societal game.

            Let's also not downplay the role of fighting and protection from other tribes. Random, "give as much as you get" violence is our species method of inter-species competition. Good or bad, it's necessary for us to function in the long term.

            Let's also not downplay the role of protection from other predators (like sabertooth tiger reaching max sizes up to 1000 pounds, which existed from 3 million years ago to just 10,000 years ago). Man was not merely a hunter. He was hunted.
            Last edited by wiltondeportes; 06-23-2012, 01:05 PM.

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            • Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
              I don't like the politically-correct attitude of just being quiet when everyone talks about what they believe in. I speak up not because I want to control their lives or their thoughts. I speak up because their beliefs end up perpetuating a cycle that causes damage to the world and to me.
              No, the idea that individuals must all believe the same is what causes that damage to the world and to you. It isn't just a religious idea, it's all throughout humanity. The need to control others' thoughts and beliefs is widespread and not relegated to religious persons. I have no such ambitions, and most likely the reason why people do assume religious people have that attitude is because the ones that don't (and they are numerous) just don't see the point in harassing those that don't agree.
              Durp.

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              • I can't resist ...

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                • Originally posted by RitaRose View Post
                  No, the idea that individuals must all believe the same is what causes that damage to the world and to you. It isn't just a religious idea, it's all throughout humanity. The need to control others' thoughts and beliefs is widespread and not relegated to religious persons. I have no such ambitions, and most likely the reason why people do assume religious people have that attitude is because the ones that don't (and they are numerous) just don't see the point in harassing those that don't agree.
                  I am not expecting anyone to believe everything that I do. However, there are a few, key beliefs that destroy us as a society. Why would I not want to show people this? Why would I not want to help people remove these beliefs from their repetoire?

                  I agree with the basics that believing you know the one right way is damaging to the world and to me. Ironically, I was already saying that this belief is implanted within the modern religion's belief system, whether you see it or not. I am not saying my way is the one right way. I am saying there are thousands of acceptable, right ways out there. The clear wrong way is the one which you are believing.

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                  • When it comes to religion I follow the 80/20 rule...... This whole thread is what I find some damn funny about the "Paleo Diet" or "Primal Blueprint". Who gives a rats arse about what cavemen ate, nobody knows. Just like nobody knows what is written in the bible is true or not. None of us were around back then. You can choose to belive or not, that is a personal choice. Living Primal has nothing to do with a caveman or someone living in Mesopotamia.

                    Please stop seeing this lifestyle as a Prehistoric renactment, its not. It is about living a healthly lifestyle that uses whole natural foods to substain us, as are bodies were created or evolved to consume. I hate the threads like "Did Grok do this or that...." Who cares. Eat well, be happy and Grok on......

                    Peace love out......
                    I Kettlebell therefore I am.

                    My Journal
                    My Journal

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                    • Originally posted by neowild View Post
                      I can't resist ...

                      I will definitely give you that one!

                      I do wonder, though, how much of that had to do with theology and how much was more using religion as a tool for power.
                      Durp.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                        I am not expecting anyone to believe everything that I do. However, there are a few, key beliefs that destroy us as a society. Why would I not want to show people this? Why would I not want to help people remove these beliefs from their repetoire?

                        I agree with the basics that believing you know the one right way is damaging to the world and to me. Ironically, I was already saying that this belief is implanted within the modern religion's belief system, whether you see it or not. I am not saying my way is the one right way. I am saying there are thousands of acceptable, right ways out there. The clear wrong way is the one which you are believing.
                        I'm not so sure on the "one right way" thing. That may be why I've left a couple of churches myself, because I could see extenuating circumstances in nearly every situation, and not all religions or denominations agree that there is such a thing. But then again, some do.

                        Again, I don't see that mine is "the clear wrong way". I don't see that yours is either. I just think trying to convince me I'm wrong assumes you have more and/or better information than I do. We have different information and therefore have different beliefs.
                        Durp.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by RitaRose View Post
                          I'm not so sure on the "one right way" thing. That may be why I've left a couple of churches myself, because I could see extenuating circumstances in nearly every situation, and not all religions or denominations agree that there is such a thing. But then again, some do.

                          Again, I don't see that mine is "the clear wrong way". I don't see that yours is either. I just think trying to convince me I'm wrong assumes you have more and/or better information than I do. We have different information and therefore have different beliefs.
                          If you claim your religion in any serious way at all, the previous harmful memes that I talked about are going to be part of your belief system. That is my leap of assumption with your beliefs. If you claim you believe in a god, but you don't believe in a bible or text related to this 'god'....then you aren't really believing any part of that religion. You just created your own where you can be superstitious about anything you want because you write the rules to this new religion.

                          So, I can't go through an entire list of beliefs with people that want to create their own religions. All I can say is that these harmful memes exist, and they are prevalent everywhere you look in our society. East to west, north to south, theist to atheist. My battle is not against the conept of a god (animists have gods...). My battle is against the general religion of our soceity. I'm arguing with anyone that claims theism in our society because, if they did not make up their own shit while removing ALL the bad memes (highly unlikely unless they believe something like science or animism), I can say with 100% confidence that they are full of shit.

                          As I already mentioned, I understand why religion happens. It's for mental wellbeing. If you need a religion in your life to be happy, that is fine and actually natural at the end of the day. That's where I come in and say "Back off this conventional wisdom, modern theism crap that is destroying the world. Believe in the gods of science HOWEVER you choose to look at it.... Not everyone has to be Einstein. Some can be sun worshippers or bear worshippers."
                          Last edited by wiltondeportes; 06-23-2012, 01:41 PM.

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                          • Originally posted by TorMag View Post
                            When it comes to religion I follow the 80/20 rule...... This whole thread is what I find some damn funny about the "Paleo Diet" or "Primal Blueprint". Who gives a rats arse about what cavemen ate, nobody knows. Just like nobody knows what is written in the bible is true or not. None of us were around back then. You can choose to belive or not, that is a personal choice. Living Primal has nothing to do with a caveman or someone living in Mesopotamia.

                            Please stop seeing this lifestyle as a Prehistoric renactment, its not. It is about living a healthly lifestyle that uses whole natural foods to substain us, as are bodies were created or evolved to consume. I hate the threads like "Did Grok do this or that...." Who cares. Eat well, be happy and Grok on......

                            Peace love out......
                            This thread is not about the Primal Blueprint or the Paleo Diet. This is in the Odds and Ends section where we discuss other stuff.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                              This thread is not about the Primal Blueprint or the Paleo Diet. This is in the Odds and Ends section where we discuss other stuff.
                              Apparently you have a problem with staying on topic, go back and read the first post......
                              I Kettlebell therefore I am.

                              My Journal
                              My Journal

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TorMag View Post
                                Apparently you have a problem with staying on topic, go back and read the first post......
                                Threads are not so holy that you have to always respond only to the very first post in it. Conversations happen after that point, and sometimes the conversations move away from the original point.

                                I made all these posts in a thread which asked for the oppposite of who I am, but it's hard for me to truly be sorry when I feel like my voice had to be heard.

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