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  • #16
    Originally posted by Leida View Post
    I had terrible problems sleeping, but that got resolved now somehow. I don't even wake up in the middle of the night no more, just go from 8:30 pm to 3 am... then a snooze till getting up at 4 am.

    What did not do any difference: candel-light, cold showers, immobilized position
    What seems to have helped: higher body weight, glucomannan (fibre) and ALA supplementation. Low Carb + Low fiber + low metabolism seem to be waking me up because I was hungry and cold.

    I am hoping that I can lose some of the weight but retain sleep.
    My guess is the fiber had big impact! Stick with what works!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by otzi View Post
      I had the 'go to bed tired, but wide awake at 2am' syndrome for years. Past 4 months I've been sleeping like a baby most nights. Try this: Take up to 4TBS of raw, unmodified potato starch right after dinner and don't snack between dinner and bedtime. You may want to start out with 1TBS and work your way up, it gives some people gas at first. I use Bob's Red Mill Unmodified Potato Starch at about $4/pound. Works like magic. It has a high percentage of resistant starch and it spreads out the glucose released from dinner all night long. 1TBS is only about 40 calories and 10g carbs, but taken raw, it is not absorbed like regular carbs, it turns into short chain fatty acid when it hits your large intestine--this takes about 5 hours from the time eaten, which is why it's best to take it shortly after dinner and don't eat anything else. If you try it and it works, play around with timing and amount and snacking after dinner if that's what you are into. Many people find that when taken right after dinner, they don't get hungry at all prior to bed time. If you end up trying it, PM me in a couple weeks and let me know if it worked for you, I don't check here very often anymore.
      Good luck!

      Oh thanks. I will definitely try that. I've always been slightly hypoglycemic (low blood sugar). My body produces too much insulin and I am always having to snack on something throughout the day to keep my blood sugar up. I thought that could be a factor in some of this as well. I know cortisol imbalance can mess with your blood sugar levels too. I'll let you know if it works.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by nellis_1986 View Post
        Oh thanks. I will definitely try that. I've always been slightly hypoglycemic (low blood sugar). My body produces too much insulin and I am always having to snack on something throughout the day to keep my blood sugar up. I thought that could be a factor in some of this as well. I know cortisol imbalance can mess with your blood sugar levels too. I'll let you know if it works.
        Easiest way to take it is just mix it with water or milk or yogurt or anything liquid. It dissolves completely and has no taste.

        Don't go into it with any preconceived ideas of what should happen--if it works it works, if it doesn't you will know after a couple days then you can decide to keep on or not. I think most of the sleep problems reported by paleo people is a result of not enough slow-release carbs in the diet resulting in poorly timed cortisol, lactate, or adrenalin releases at night, interrupting sleep cycles.

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        • #19
          I don't think we prepare ourselves for sleep very well. We're often governed by the clock and when we think it's the right time to go to bed.

          Our ancestors were not governed by the alarm clock. They would have gone to bed when it was dark and got up when it was light. This influence of light and dark is linked to the movement of the planets and affects nearly all living creatures including plants, which open and close with the cycle of the sun.

          What causes us to wake when it is light?

          When light (from whatever source) hits our eyes or skin, the brain thinks it is morning. In response to this the hormonal system releases cortisol. This is the wake up hormone that says ‘get up, get ready and prepare for work’. For our ancestors this would have been’ get up and prepare for survival’ it is not any different for us today, we just perceive it differently.
          Cortisol levels rise at about 06.00am and peak about 09.00am, after which they drop slightly but remain high through lunch time so you can carry out your desired activity. Cortisol starts to drop in the afternoon when the sun starts to go down, which is when you reach for the coffee or energy drink (I will explain why that is not a good idea later). When cortisol decreases then melatonin levels start to rise. Melatonin is the sleep hormone (which promotes growth and repair).This is when we should follow our ancestors and start to prepare for sleep, which should ideally be around 10.00pm. The above pattern is known as the sleep/wake cycle, which can be seen in the illustration below.

          sleepwakecycle.jpg

          Why can I not sleep?

          There are many reasons why cortisol levels may remain high well into the evening and night. Your body releases cortisol in response to stress. The body does not know the difference between falling down the stairs, alcohol, coffee, light stimulation from televisions, computers, fluorescent lights etc. It is all just stress to the body, which responds by producing cortisol (wake up get ready to go). This would be a good thing if you was in a situation where you needed to needed to get a task done (such as driving to meet a loved one in danger,or fighting to survive), but not when trying to get to sleep. Cortisol can take hours to leave the bloodstream, which will inhibit the release of melatonin, this at night when you are trying to sleep, will cut into the body’s physical and psychological repair time, making you wake up tired and irritable.
          Let us take coffee as one example of a stimulant that will release cortisol. Caffeine has a half life of around 6 hours. So that coffee taken a 09.00pm will lead to half the caffeine still being in the blood at 03.00am. This is when you should be well into the psychological repair phase of your sleep. Therefore, it would be better to avoid stimulants of any kind after lunch. Remember stimulants will include light sources.

          Drinking water and remaining hydrated is very important, as dehydration is seen as stress by the body.

          Stress = release of stress hormones = wake up hormones.

          Entrainment

          Entrainment is defined as the tendency for two oscillating bodies to lock into phase so that they vibrate in harmony. It is also defined as a synchronization of two or more rhythmic cycles. The principle of entrainment is universal, appearing in chemistry, pharmacology, biology, medicine, psychology, sociology, astronomy, architecture and more. Christian Huygens a notable physicist coined the term entrainment after he noticed, in 1666, that two pendulum clocks had moved into the same swinging rhythm, so one clock had become entrained to the rhythm of the other. Subsequent experiments duplicated this process.

          How does this affect sleep patterns?

          Chances are during the day (and night) you will be exposed to low frequency electromagnetic energies. Power lines, electrical circuits in your walls, ceilings and floors and electrical appliances such as electric blankets and TV’s all emit such energies. This electromagnetic pollution can disrupt natural sleep / wake cycles.

          What to do

          Try unplugging all electrical items in your bedroom, including clocks, TV’s and lights. If your sleep quality improves, rearrange your bedroom so that all electrical items are as far away from your bed as possible. Also do not use an electric blanket.

          Other forms of entrainment

          Doctors and psychologists have discovered that you can become entrained or synchronized to a dysfunctional schedule in as little as 7-21 days. This means that if you stay up to midnight for one to three weeks in a row, your internal body clock will become entrained to wait until midnight to start reducing cortisol output and increasing melatonin output. If your body gets used to going to bed late and you then decide to get to bed earlier one night, you’ll probably have a hard time falling asleep. Now you are faced with the task of entraining your system to release your sleepy-time chemicals early enough so that you can get to sleep on time for a full cycle of physical and mental repair. In addition, if you work in an environment with other people, your heartbeat will show up in the brain waves of any weaker people in the group. In other words, you get entrained down to their level. This is one of the reasons at the end of the day you go home mentally tired.

          In summary

          All the above is very difficult to change in the world we live in today, we fly from one time zone to another, we have deadlines to meet, training is often done in the evening after work when we should really be winding down, your young child cries at night causing you to release cortisol again and so on.
          With that said, I would recommend that if you are unable to recover from injury, are suffering from lack of energy, get irritable quickly or just cannot sleep, then you take a look at your sleep pattern.

          Comment


          • #20
            Further Entrainment Information

            Entrainment is a function of resonance, or the frequency an object wants to vibrate. We all function to a certain rhythm. Our heart beat, respiration and brain waves are entrained to each other. If you slow down your breathing, your heart rate will drop and your brain wave pattern will alter. The opposite effect is to calm the mind and the heart rate and respiration will drop.
            With entrainment you can change the natural oscillating pattern of one object and replace it with the oscillating pattern of another.

            In 1666 Christopher Huygens coined the term entrainment after he noticed that two pendulum clocks had moved into the same swinging rhythm. The accepted reason is that small amounts of energy were transferred between the two clocks when they were out of phase. The clock (or system) with the greater frequency slows down, while the other accelerates until both are in phase.

            It is easy for two different people to become entrained. Females who work in the same office for any long period of time can start to share their menstrual cycle. A similar example may be the entrainment between a parent and their child.

            You may have noticed effects of entrainment yourself. If you have spent any time with a person mentally weaker than you, your stronger brainwave will actually slow down, while their brain wave will speed up. The outcome is you will get entrained down to their level. This is why you sometimes go home at the end of the day mentally tired.
            Electrical equipment also resonates a certain frequency, so time spent in an office can leave you entrained and feeling weak.

            Brainwave entrainment refers to the brain's electrical response to sensory stimulation, such as light. Entrainment is also linked to even greater cycles such as lunar cycles. We are nearly all entrained to sleep when it is dark and wake when it is light for example.
            When the brain receives a sensory signal it emits an electrical charge, this charge runs into and through the brain to become what we see and hear.
            When the brain receives a rhythmic stimulus it is reproduced in the brain as an electrical impulse. If this stimulus is fast enough it can resemble the natural rhythm of the brain, called a brainwave. Brainwaves are related to mental state. You could not normally go to sleep for example listening to AC/DC, but could listening to the calming sound of the sea.

            The brainwaves are as follows: -

            • Gamma (100 - 38) HZ (Hertz=cycles per second)
            • Beta (38 - 15) HZ
            • Alpha (14 - 8) HZ
            • Theta (7 - 4) HZ
            • Delta (3 - 0.5) HZ.

            Gamma Brainwaves
            Not much is know (in comparison to other brainwaves) about Gamma waves. They have been seen in states of both physical and mental peak performance, periods of high concentration and schizophrenia.

            Beta Brainwaves
            Normal waking consciousness is when beta brainwaves would be observed.
            Anxious, busy or active thinking produces these brain wave patterns.

            Alpha Brainwaves
            Alpha brainwaves are seen when we are relaxed, daydreaming or visualising.
            Sensing is the word here. Hearing, tasting and smell can stimulate alpha waves.

            Theta Brainwaves
            Subconscious, dreaming (REM Sleep), hypnosis and meditation produces Theta waves. It is connected with intuition and creativity.

            Delta Brainwaves
            These are the lowest frequency waves and represent unconsciousness or dreamless deep sleep.

            Binaural Beats

            We now know that our brain operates at certain frequencies at certain times of the day, depending on our mood, our surroundings, our company, stimulation to light and so on. It is possible to alter the state of mind by means such as meditation, but an ever more popular method is binaural beats.
            We all know that music can affect our mood. Rock concert leave you buzzing, whereas a folk concert might leave you more mellow.
            It is now possible to obtain very low frequencies from a fairly high sound, so if the frequencies of two sound sources are applied separately, one to each ear, a binaural beat frequency is created. What is heard is not the two separate sound (frequencies), but a frequency difference between the two sounds. It is like playing the number 1 in one ear and number 3 in the other and hearing number 2.
            So by listening (through headphones) to certain frequencies it is possible to alter your brainwaves, whether that be higher frequencies to stimulate thought processes, or lower frequencies to help relaxation or sleep.

            I use binaural beats at work. If I feel mentally drained I use a certain frequency for 10 minutes to perk myself up. If a feel a headache coming on I can usually stop it by using another frequency.

            Binaural beats are not just a buzzing in your ear. There are some good ones that can be downloaded (some for free) on I-Tunes. They are mixed in with calming sounds of the ocean, bird song, thunder and rain and can nearly all be customised to suit you.

            Certainly worth a look.

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            • #21
              EVERYBODY LISTEN

              OK, I want to be clear, you're all suffering the consequences of a monophasic sleep pattern, which is as unnatural as the SAD diet and sedentarism combined.

              I could give the speech myself, but I'd like to credit the author properly, so please, for the sake of the gods and your health, read this:
              Segmented Sleep | Polyphasic Society

              Summary:
              -If you wake up in the middle of the night halfway of your sleep, WAKE UP
              -When you wake up, stay awake for a minimum of an hour and a half
              -This is the best time of the day for over-eighteen activities and lucid dreaming (try it! it's very hard but really worth it!)
              -Yet another bad thing you can blame on society! High five!


              P.S: If you checked other articles or the forum you would learn much much more.

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              • #22
                I know people who monophasic sleep and they do well on it, but I wouldn't be recommending it to everyone, certainly not without medical advice.

                I also wouldn't be recommending waking for a minimum of 90 minutes. If you're suffering from lack of sleep, getting up for 90 minutes isn't going to help.

                Experimentation may be the key.

                It takes 7 - 21 days to become entrained to a new sleep pattern, so a few weeks of making sure you get to sleep at the same time and using the same pre-sleep programme it what should be recommended.

                It may be that a sleep, wake, sleep pattern is what suits you, but I wouldn't be jumping straight in.

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                • #23
                  Well, if you go to sleep 90 minutes before, problem solved. First is sleep debt, then segmentation, then my secret to waking up euphoric.

                  And there's no need for 7-21 days, maybe a couple of days to de-monophase yourself, and then you should wake in the middle of the night around the same time, I wake up every day after exactly 5 hours and half, without alarm or any training at all, just like nature intended.

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                  • #24
                    Ditto, although I wake up to pee... a lot. Anyhow, the only tip I really have is to nap when you can. I work from home and don't have children so following that advice is likely easier for me.... I also nap quite readily.
                    Out of context quote for the day:

                    Clearly Gorbag is so awesome he should be cloned, reproducing in the normal manner would only dilute his awesomeness. - Urban Forager

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                    • #25
                      That's fine, but we shouldn't be making recommendations on what works for us. That is being a poor coach, just like the gym instructor who bases your routine around his because that's what works for him.

                      Hours travelled, hours worked, diet, hydration, relaxation time, spouse, children etc all need to be taken into account when making a recommendation.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by simon s View Post
                        That's fine, but we shouldn't be making recommendations on what works for us. That is being a poor coach, just like the gym instructor who bases your routine around his because that's what works for him.

                        Hours travelled, hours worked, diet, hydration, relaxation time, spouse, children etc all need to be taken into account when making a recommendation.
                        Of course, he should try to make his own sleep schedule, but ideally it would be segmented and with a nap if it were possible, I'm only telling my personal experience

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                        • #27
                          Okay. I think I have helped my sleeping problem a bit. I happened to be watching Dr. Oz. It was sheer coincidence, that he just happened to be talking about sleep disorders/insomnia and so on. Anyway. He suggested drinking a glass of organic tart cherry juice an hour before bedtime. It has melatonin in it at it's purest nutritional form. Depending on what kind of sleep disorder you may suffer from, it might work for you guys. I wasn't sure why I wasn't sleeping. I was pretty convinced that it was stress related. I also think I had some neurotransmitter deficiencies happening as well. Anyway. I decided to try it (you can get this at pretty much any grocery store) Just have to look hard for it. So I tried it, since I had pretty much tried everything already. I wasn't going into this with anything to lose. First night, I noticed I fell asleep faster than I had been. Second night, I slept from midnight to 5am without waking up once. Third night, I slept from midnight to 6am without waking up.. Tonight will be my 4th night and I am convinced that it's helping. Up until these last few days, I had been having trouble falling and staying asleep. The cherry juice seems to be working. It's worth a try for you all.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by nellis_1986 View Post
                            Okay. I think I have helped my sleeping problem a bit. I happened to be watching Dr. Oz. It was sheer coincidence, that he just happened to be talking about sleep disorders/insomnia and so on. Anyway. He suggested drinking a glass of organic tart cherry juice an hour before bedtime. It has melatonin in it at it's purest nutritional form. Depending on what kind of sleep disorder you may suffer from, it might work for you guys. I wasn't sure why I wasn't sleeping. I was pretty convinced that it was stress related. I also think I had some neurotransmitter deficiencies happening as well. Anyway. I decided to try it (you can get this at pretty much any grocery store) Just have to look hard for it. So I tried it, since I had pretty much tried everything already. I wasn't going into this with anything to lose. First night, I noticed I fell asleep faster than I had been. Second night, I slept from midnight to 5am without waking up once. Third night, I slept from midnight to 6am without waking up.. Tonight will be my 4th night and I am convinced that it's helping. Up until these last few days, I had been having trouble falling and staying asleep. The cherry juice seems to be working. It's worth a try for you all.
                            For the sake of god, STOP IT.

                            Melatonin is just a temporary solution to a real problem, and that real problem is called evolution.

                            We're NOT adapted to sleep through the night, that's why so many of us have sleep problems, trying to take melatonin to sleep against nature is subverting it, just read the damn link and wake up in the middle of the night for 1 and a half hour every day:
                            Segmented Sleep | Polyphasic Society
                            Last edited by Miguelinileugim; 06-09-2013, 09:38 PM. Reason: Ninja cat-pirates

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Miguelinileugim View Post
                              We're NOT adapted to sleep through the night, that's why so many of us have sleep problems, trying to take melatonin to sleep against nature is subverting it, just read the damn link and wake up in the middle of the night for 1 and a half hour every day:
                              Segmented Sleep | Polyphasic Society
                              I've have naturally done this at times ( for reasons unknown) but rarely. I cant say I remember extra energy the following days. Though I found Lucid Dreams are more common and often very clear when returning to bed. Accidental and intentional W.I.L.D. seems to occur more regularly after a few REM cycles followed by break in sleep - though it's a bit off topic.

                              So how do you wake up in the middle of the night? Alarm?
                              Do you ideally wake after your second REM period? Do you use a smartphone movement based alarm app?

                              The segmented sleep problem may apply to a friend of mine - I'll pass the link to him.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Miguelinileugim View Post
                                For the sake of god, STOP IT.

                                Melatonin is just a temporary solution to a real problem, and that real problem is called evolution.

                                We're NOT adapted to sleep through the night, that's why so many of us have sleep problems, trying to take melatonin to sleep against nature is subverting it, just read the damn link and wake up in the middle of the night for 1 and a half hour every day:
                                Segmented Sleep | Polyphasic Society


                                haha. With all due respect, aren't you being as narrow minded as you're claiming me to be? I did preface what I said with "different types of insomnia". There are different reasons why one cannot get to sleep at night. Not everyone is the same and we all have different types of sleeping problems, habits and disorders. Some may be more simple to fix than others. Others may be more comprehensive and take more time. If what you're saying is true, then I would have always had this problem. I've gone to bed in past times, and slept so long and hard that my head hurt from over sleeping. The only times that ever changed was when I was under stress or not eating as well as I could have. Skipping meals, eating whatever I had to at the time, with little options, etc etc. As far as self medicating, I am one hundred percent against it. I don't believe in drugs. I do however believe in nutrition and the holistic side of the spectrum. I believe it's best to get your nutrients out of the foods you eat, rather than taking a supplement. It's more efficient. I also realize that what might work for someone, may not work for others. I tried the potato starch late at night.. and not only did it not help me sleep, it kept me awake all night. lol. I appreciate the thought though. After having read up on why I had that response was "tyramine". A compound found in many different things. Potatoes being one of them. Especially the starch. It acts as a stimulant to the brain. Perhaps in some people it may not affect them that way? Since someone said it worked for them. But anyway.. My point is, to not be so quick to point a finger and claim that one person's problem fits all. Because it doesn't.

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