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  • My 400 pound aunt could sing the roof off of a church. She had lap-band surgery, is now 160 pounds and can still sing the coonskin off of Davy Crockett. She received a ten-minute standing ovation at our wedding. She also speaks fluent German, has ten-year-old twins and is a bouncer. You don't mess with her, but she's the sweetest, kindest person to those who are decent humans and deserve it. If some skinny, snarky bitch decides that they want to tell her, to her face, that they don't "accept her movement," well, good fu**in' luck to you. I won't stop her.

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    • Originally posted by zoebird View Post
      It's ok to be a super-thin model-type if that is what you are.
      As long as you can do that without developing an eating disorder, right?
      Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

      Griff's cholesterol primer
      5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
      Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
      TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
      bloodorchid is always right

      Comment


      • I'm not discussing potential "grannies having wheels they must be a wagon" scenarios.

        In this world, there are a spectrum of body types from very thin (ectomorphs) to very large (endomorphs) and a wide range in between. Some people look naturally more youthful, and others look older than their years. Some are tall and some are short.

        None of these attributes mean "full of health" or "without health" inherently. It just means that we can look at people of different types and go "all is acceptable." we don't have to be mean to them (i.e., we can treat them with dignity).

        Throughout the thread I have said repeatedly that we can accept people while still promoting a healthy lifestyle in general. I don't need to say "thin people shave eating disorders" or "fat people have eating disorders." It may be that either one does. I don't know. BUT I can't say in general. I could only answer that *in specific* -- that is to say, if I'm in some form of relationship with a person who is obviously manifesting an eating disoder to get a certain "look" -- then we can discuss this.

        But that doesn't mean that the idea of accepting people, in general, is problematic.

        Comment


        • Zoe-

          I think that much of the problem with using the female form as represented in photographs from the modeling industry is that the industry is so well known for driving the models to lower and lower weights even after they are at already very thin healthy weights for their body type.

          There have been entire documentaries made on the subject of disordered eating among models... agents have been known to tell girls to "do what ever they have to" and have other more experienced girls introduce them to the practices of vomiting/bulimia and drugs that help them not feel hunger so that they can trim up by just not eating at all/gateway to anorexic behaviors. Many young models don't stay in the business but carry the disordered eating patterns with them even after they leave because the massage that they received most consistently was "if you aren't thin enough, you aren't good enough".

          I would love to think that the picture of that very thin model is "just her"... but knowing what I do about the industry I have REAL doubts. My cousin modeled for a while, one of her best friends even longer... I don't think any of them had normal menses. I saw them eat a few handfuls of popcorn and half an apple as an entire days food intake. Most girls begin modeling as teens... and now nothing about good nutrition when trying to shave off the lbs.

          I also have members of my family (especially the men, and a few of the women, on my mothers side) who are just naturally very long/tall and lean and cannot gain weight no matter what... so I know that that body type exists, and I never automatically assume that a person I meet who is thin has any sort of disordered eating. They are lean, and healthy... they are who they are.

          But like I said... I really don't/can't feel the same way about the girls who are in the modeling industry.
          “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
          ~Friedrich Nietzsche
          And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Wanderlust View Post
            How about a paleo athlete?





            Hmmm... which one is a positive body image.
            Ah the CrossFap games...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DarthFriendly View Post
              Ah the CrossFap games...
              Well put.

              Comment


              • But again, this is a very different *issue* about media portrayal, an industry, and so on.

                What you are saying is that because the industry has this issue, we must assume that all women photographed or utilized as models in some professional capacity (unless they are "plus sized" i presume) must be viewed as 'eating disordered' and thereby 'bad roll models.'

                What I am asserting is that there are outliers -- people who are naturally going to be very thin -- and we can't know until we know for a fact that a person *is* eating disordered that they are, in that way, bad roll models (they may be excellent roll models in other ways -- think Princess Diana, who was never particularly thin, but a bulimic for much of her adult life, and also a humanitarian who ddi the best with her fame as she could, i believe). And saying someone is a "bad roll model" is often saying, too, that they are "bad people" in a way.

                I am not disregarding the social issues around media portrayals of women or the issues within the industry to pressure women to be incredibly and increasingly thin.

                But what I am asserting is that we cannot blame the women in the images themselves for those circumstances, nor is it right to categorically assume that they are eating disordered (any more than we can assume that hte paleo-athlete women posted are not eating disordered; they very well may be).

                Though, it is certainly appropriate to "have your doubts" about whether or not they are happy and healthy, and to have compassion for them if they are not (which is a stance that I tend to take), and to hope for their happiness. But, the problem I tend to see instead is that they are often called ugly and bad roll models.

                Calling someone a bad roll model based on an assumption that could be false (ugly being simply a mean-spirited assertion of taste in most cases -- which is the same qualm that I have with calling fat and/or other girls and women and men) is also -- in a sense -- devaluing them. They are not "good" roll models.

                I think there's nothing wrong with having doubts, and making statements about the industry -- "The industry is really tough and pushes people to eating disorders." But there is a big difference between that criticial thinking and negative criticism such as "uh, she's disgusting. look at how skinny she is. I bet she has an eating disorder!" When, she could just be very thin by nature, or not, and honestly, she deserves the same love, care, and dignity as every other human being.

                And with that acceptance, we also better promote 'healthy lifestyles.'

                Comment


                • Women can be naturally thin and still be a 'bad role model' by virtue of being held out there (by the fashion world) as a desirable person that girls should emulate (who do not have a body shape that can healthily emulate the models shape).

                  My wife is a naturally skinny person. I suspect that there are a few people who quietly think she has an eating disorder (she doesn't).
                  Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                  Griff's cholesterol primer
                  5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                  Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                  TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                  bloodorchid is always right

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
                    Women can be naturally thin and still be a 'bad role model' by virtue of being held out there (by the fashion world) as a desirable person that girls should emulate (who do not have a body shape that can healthily emulate the models shape).
                    Assuming she is naturally thin, why is being herself a bad role model? Girls should emulate her. They should be themselves. She just happens to be naturally thin. It is not her fault if said girls are not. If said girls think "Oh, she is thin, I should look that way. Excuse me while I go take laxatives, eat nothing but lettuce, and then throw up after every meal" that is still not the model's fault nor is it due to her being a role model. She is the subject of pictures and the like, she isn't standing up there giving young girls nutritional advice.

                    Sorry, but I get tired of the "women/girls are weak willed morons who see a skinny person and must look that way" talk. I'd like to think young women have more sense. Of course, I like to think a lot of things. bleh.

                    Comment


                    • Hmm... no, I don't think that they are ugly at all... there are several women who have that waif-ish build that I personally find very attractive.

                      And I also would not say that they are 'bad' role models... but that they are over represented in the media as role models such that young women who are of a different body type see that as the only form to reach for. Constant seeking of the unattainable for many.

                      Not 'bad'... but over represented and generally unrealistic for the vast majority of girls.

                      I also have a problem with the over representation of anglo girls in media/modeling too though.
                      “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                      ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                      And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

                      Comment


                      • cori,

                        I wasn't attributing those statements to you per se. Simply trying to parce out the difference between how you approach the *person* vs how you might approach the *media/image/industry* which are too different things. It's ok to be critical of the actions that people do (to discern whether they are good/bad roll models), but not devalue them based on appearance alone; and likewise it is ok to be critical of the industry and how it treats those women and how that might also affect the culture as a whole (negatively and positively).

                        Your last point puts it well -- over represented in the industry that creates a situation where young women strive for that as the only beautiy standard -- is a criticism of the representation/media/cultural impact. And the women themselves are not "bad" because they happen to be the ones represented.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by canio6 View Post
                          Assuming she is naturally thin, why is being herself a bad role model?
                          Sorry, I wasn't meaning to and am not criticising her as an individual, or other individuals who happen to be thin. I was meaning the fashion industry glamorising thin women.
                          Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                          Griff's cholesterol primer
                          5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                          Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                          TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                          bloodorchid is always right

                          Comment


                          • Right, nothing wrong with the women, lots wrong with the media, industry, and it's impact on culture.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by canio6 View Post
                              Sorry, but I get tired of the "women/girls are weak willed morons who see a skinny person and must look that way" talk. I'd like to think young women have more sense. Of course, I like to think a lot of things. bleh.
                              Originally posted by zoebird View Post
                              cori,
                              ...

                              Your last point puts it well -- over represented in the industry that creates a situation where young women strive for that as the only beautiy standard -- is a criticism of the representation/media/cultural impact. And the women themselves are not "bad" because they happen to be the ones represented.
                              well said zoe. canio I know you don't really get it, but a lot of women are negatively effected by this. it's not just "oh people think she's hot, i don't look like her so i should just off myself"; it's more ubiquitous than that. I wish i knew how to explain it to you.
                              my primal journal:
                              http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

                              Comment


                              • I think that, overall, it largely affects our relationship to ourselves.

                                I mean, I look at my body which -- for all intents and purposes is right in all the right ways. And yet, I still struggle with acceptance of my own body, and I find myself often preoccupied with my measurements (weight, body fat percentage, skin condition, hair condition, etc etc etc) and concerned that I'm not attractive or beautiful.

                                It is so quiet, in a way. It's just "this is what is" in the sort of consciousness, and there's often fear or anxiety around it as well (because another common image is sexual/rape of women or general predatory objectification) -- so you want to be beautiful to attract men, but not SO beautiful that they objectify or rape you.

                                It's almost a part of the fabric of who I am -- and I'm actually pretty strong and not 'overly harmed' by it as other women often are (eating disorders, all sorts of things like surgery and such to become a certain 'look' or fit the mold, etc) -- but it still has an effect.

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