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  • #16
    Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
    Seems to be epidemic on this issue. Quackwatch is not above that. They've villified plenty of claims in the past as being crazy woo which I've found to be on solid scientific ground.


    Case in point. The disclaimer "Although the types of chemical bonds in water and amalgam differ" basically refutes this entire argument. The chemistry of the two examples is entirely different. One's a molecule, the other a mixture.

    Based on this analogy, the gluten in cake can't hurt you because you mix the wheat flour with sugar and eggs and butter, making batter. If the ingredients in batter could harm you, the hydrogen in water would explode you every time you turned on the faucet.

    Actually, no. Both are equally bad analogies.

    The issue is not so cut and dry as the proponents of either side of the argument would have you believe. Read the Wikipedia page to get both sides on the matter. I've chosen to have my fillings replaced, and I'll feel a great sense of at-least-placebo relief when the last quadrant is done.

    Fact is we don't know if the mercury is enough to adversely affect you, but we do know some leaches out constantly in your mouth where it can be breathed in. I'd rather not have it there.
    Name some and provide backing please.
    Both are analogies and therefore imperfect but the oxygen/hydrogen one is closer to the mark than the batter ingredients one because it is dealing with stable chemical bonds. An amalgam is not just a cake mix. The "ingredients" are chemically bonded to one another.
    Quackwatch is trying to stop unscrupulous people from taking advantage of uninformed people through scare tactics and "smoke and mirrors" devices such as that meter shown in the article.
    If you feel better without them in your mouth and you have the extra cash to drop on that and don't mind the pain involved, fine, that is your decision.
    I got all of mine taken out for cosmetic reasons. I didn't feel any different. A dentist I know who specializes in doing this kind of work (and has gotten very rich doing it) tried to convince me that the fillings were causing my seizure disorder. Nope. It didn't go away.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by twa2w View Post
      The quote about the mercury in a filling came from a statment made by the EPA a number of years ago when they stated how small an amount it would take to render the amount of water in pool as unfit. When you compare that amount to the amount of mercury from an average filling (as listed by the ADA) you will see this is in fact true - if you believe the EPA is right and the ADA is correct.
      If you want you can figure this out for yourself.

      Personally I am not a fan of quack watch. The guy who runs it is very close minded. Would not consider any thing outside of a very narrow conventional medical view.

      If you recall your high school chemistry, you may remember your teacher asking a question - what is the one thing that is safe in large doses and can kill you in small doses. Of course it is mercury. You can swallow a tablespoon or more of elemental mercury and it will pass through your body. But small doses of mercury compounds (for some reason methyl mercury comes to mind) will be deadly over a relatively short period.

      Cheers
      J

      Can you link me to the ADA and EPA data? Google-Fu failed me again on this.

      Also EVERYTHING is fatal in the right dose. Yes even oxygen and water.
      "Go For Broke"
      Fat Kine-230/24% @ 6'2"
      Small Kine-168/9%
      Now- 200/8%
      Goal- 210/6%

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
        Name some and provide backing please.
        Name some what?

        Originally posted by paleobird
        Both are analogies and therefore imperfect
        I disagree that the fact that they're analogies is the problem. According to my layman's understanding of the chemistry, both are inaccurate analogies. An amalgam isn't a mixture like a cake mix, but it certainly isn't the same as a molecule of water.

        Originally posted by paleobird
        but the oxygen/hydrogen one is closer to the mark than the batter ingredients one because it is dealing with stable chemical bonds. An amalgam is not just a cake mix. The "ingredients" are chemically bonded to one another.
        I don't think anyone on either side of the argument disputes that there's some off-gasing from mercury fillings. So this is really a moot point. The argument is whether this can affect the thyroid and other systems to a sufficient degree to warrant their removal/disuse.

        Originally posted by paleobird
        Quackwatch is trying to stop unscrupulous people from taking advantage of uninformed people through scare tactics and "smoke and mirrors" devices such as that meter shown in the article.
        If you feel better without them in your mouth and you have the extra cash to drop on that and don't mind the pain involved, fine, that is your decision.
        There are clearly less than wholly honest people on both sides of the discussion. I will feel a lot better once all mine are out.

        Originally posted by paleobird
        I got all of mine taken out for cosmetic reasons. I didn't feel any different. A dentist I know who specializes in doing this kind of work (and has gotten very rich doing it) tried to convince me that the fillings were causing my seizure disorder. Nope. It didn't go away.
        Sorry to hear that. I don't know whether it's woo or real science, but some algaes like Chlorella are supposed to help bind to heavy metals and help you purge them. Or maybe the mercury remediation just wasn't the solution to your problem. I hope you otherwise found/find a way to keep the seizures under control.

        I'm just saying that Quackwatch is not the greatest source for accurate, unbiased information, and encouraging everyone to read both sides and look at the science before making a decision about dental amalgam. I don't think this issue's been settled either way (nor do I propose to be able to think how one would design the experiment that would settle the matter), but I've seen enough things that scare me to the extent that I don't want it in my head any more. I'm not trying to have a link war, but Wikipedia has links to several sources on both sides of the matter that anyone can search through to find their own solution to this issue.
        The Champagne of Beards

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        • #19
          If the mercury in fillings is so bound up why is amalgam considered a hazardous waste. I am done listenening to experts on this one. I have an ample amount of education in chemistry and hazardous waste disposal. Amalgam removed from anyone's mouth is considered a hazardous waste and is to be handled as such. This says to me that the mercury does have the opportunity to leech from this "bound up" state (what an amazingly untechnical term).

          A proper stable atomic bond is something like table salt (NaCl). While chloride is toxic in its pure state table salt is inert and noreactive. Chlroine when disposed of is considered a hazardous waste but table salt is not. Why then are amalgams treated as hazardous waste? This is the question that bothers me.

          Chlorella is actually a very poor chelater as it only has one sulfide group to bond with toxic metals. DMPS and LA are far beeter as they have 2 sulfide groups that provide a far stronger bond to carry heavy metals out of the body.

          The quackwatch article also stated that the amalgams placed in the animals was done without a rubber dam. If that is so important then I am pissed because no dentist has ever used a rubber dam on me when putting in my amalgams or last year when I had a cap put on a tooth with an amalgam. Clearly a dam is important to keep mercury from being ingested and elevating mercury levels in the body.

          All the inconsistancies are what irritate me the most.
          Check out my primal blog: http://primalroar.posterous.com/

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          • #20
            Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
            Name some what?

            I disagree that the fact that they're analogies is the problem. According to my layman's understanding of the chemistry, both are inaccurate analogies. An amalgam isn't a mixture like a cake mix, but it certainly isn't the same as a molecule of water

            I don't think anyone on either side of the argument disputes that there's some off-gasing from mercury fillings. So this is really a moot point. The argument is whether this can affect the thyroid and other systems to a sufficient degree to warrant their removal/disuse.

            There are clearly less than wholly honest people on both sides of the discussion. I will feel a lot better once all mine are out.

            Sorry to hear that. I don't know whether it's woo or real science, but some algaes like Chlorella are supposed to help bind to heavy metals and help you purge them. Or maybe the mercury remediation just wasn't the solution to your problem. I hope you otherwise found/find a way to keep the seizures under control.

            I'm just saying that Quackwatch is not the greatest source for accurate, unbiased information, and encouraging everyone to read both sides and look at the science before making a decision about dental amalgam. I don't think this issue's been settled either way (nor do I propose to be able to think how one would design the experiment that would settle the matter), but I've seen enough things that scare me to the extent that I don't want it in my head any more. I'm not trying to have a link war, but Wikipedia has links to several sources on both sides of the matter that anyone can search through to find their own solution to this issue.
            You stated that there had been times when quackwatch had debunked something and then you had "found" it to have merit. I was asking for a f'instance and some backing for the "merit" part.

            Yes there is *some* degree of exposure. But if the only people telling you that it is a dangerously high degree are the people who stand to make money off of your dental work, that is cause for skepticism. There is *some* degree of exposure to carcinogens involved in breathing in an urban area too.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by MightyAl View Post
              If the mercury in fillings is so bound up why is amalgam considered a hazardous waste. I am done listenening to experts on this one. I have an ample amount of education in chemistry and hazardous waste disposal. Amalgam removed from anyone's mouth is considered a hazardous waste and is to be handled as such. This says to me that the mercury does have the opportunity to leech from this "bound up" state (what an amazingly untechnical term).

              A proper stable atomic bond is something like table salt (NaCl). While chloride is toxic in its pure state table salt is inert and noreactive. Chlroine when disposed of is considered a hazardous waste but table salt is not. Why then are amalgams treated as hazardous waste? This is the question that bothers me.

              Chlorella is actually a very poor chelater as it only has one sulfide group to bond with toxic metals. DMPS and LA are far beeter as they have 2 sulfide groups that provide a far stronger bond to carry heavy metals out of the body.

              The quackwatch article also stated that the amalgams placed in the animals was done without a rubber dam. If that is so important then I am pissed because no dentist has ever used a rubber dam on me when putting in my amalgams or last year when I had a cap put on a tooth with an amalgam. Clearly a dam is important to keep mercury from being ingested and elevating mercury levels in the body.

              All the inconsistancies are what irritate me the most.
              Your dentist was definitely being sloppy and I would find another one.

              Also the potential for exposure is greater in animals that graze and/or chew their cud constantly. A lot more grinding on the teeth. That's why animal data is not really accurate re people.

              An amalgam is somewhere in between a stable atomic level bond and the cake mix analogy. It is bound up when in your tooth. The reason it is considered hazardous waste is that, out of your tooth and exposed to all the other chemical agents that could be in a land fill, the amalgam bonds could break down, allowing the mercury out.

              I don't see anything inconsistent about it. Just a bunch of people being sold dental work they probably don't need based on hype and fear.

              Comment


              • #22
                For those of you with older amalgam fillings, at least get them checked out by a dentist. They do decay.
                Don't let anybody tell you, "You can't" just because they can't.

                Comment


                • #23
                  If my dentist didn't use the white stuff, I would look like Richard Kiel in those James Bond flicks.

                  I, too, have worried about this. I don't have the definitive answer, but I do know for a fact that older ones eventually need to be replaced, so while you are on the fence, if your dentist says one has to go, replace it with the white stuff and at least you are one down. And maybe get one more done if you have the money - they'll go quicker that way.

                  I decided not to lose sleep about this, as the old ones were/are failing at a decent clip now and I only have a couple left.

                  I asked my kids' dentist about this, and he said not to worry (although the kids have almost zero cavities, so no big worries there).
                  I have a mantra that I have spouted for years... "If I eat right, I feel right. If I feel right, I exercise right. If I exercise right, I think right. If I think right, I eat right..." Phil-SC

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I have amazing energy after getting my amalgam fillings replaced just over two years ago.

                    Last visit to my dentist ... the nurse recoiled in shock at how much healthier and younger I looked.

                    I have high histamine which interferes with the body's ability to detox mercury and also causes me to produce excess saliva which protects my teeth, in addition to eating a low sugar diet. The private dentist who replaced my mercury fillings said I never needed any of those mercury fillings in the first place and that my teeth are as good as new apart from the fact that some bastard drilled for cash back when I was in my teens.
                    F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
                      The private dentist who replaced my mercury fillings said I never needed any of those mercury fillings in the first place and that my teeth are as good as new apart from the fact that some bastard drilled for cash back when I was in my teens.
                      That happened to me, too. Bastard is a mild term. My family was on welfare for quite a while (Mom worked her ass off and got off it years ago, but yeah, we were honestly grateful it was there while we used it...), and the local dentist who treated me as a middle-schooler (and who accepted the government poor-people medical card) did the same thing. If I could, I wouldn't sue for compensation - I think drilling and filling the same unnecessary fillings would be good...
                      I have a mantra that I have spouted for years... "If I eat right, I feel right. If I feel right, I exercise right. If I exercise right, I think right. If I think right, I eat right..." Phil-SC

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Anyone using Quackwatch as a source of information is being seriously duped by an organization that is merely a shill for Big Pharma (see Steven Barretts ties to the AMA, FDA and FTC).

                        If that is the type of science you are looking for, just go straight to the CDC website, or to Merck, or any other Pharma corp website.

                        Look up what they think of a paleo diet, or anything that is not part of a CW mentality. They are anti everything that is not 100% CW.
                        How in the world would people that frequent this site use that as a legit source of info. Maybe the people that are in fact not primal, but just need a place to post thoughts?

                        Here is your Quackwatch leader:
                        Dr. Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch Exposed In Court Cases, critic of lyme disease doctors and diagnosis

                        Hmmmm....sounds like a great guy to be trusting for my info on health.
                        Last edited by PeacefulWarrior; 06-17-2012, 08:39 AM.
                        "Your actions speak to me so loud, I can not hear a single word you are saying."

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Here is Steven Barrett, Quackwatch leader extraordinaire:
                          Dr. Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch Exposed In Court Cases

                          At trial, under a heated cross-examination by Negrete, Barrett conceded that he was not a Medical Board Certified psychiatrist because he had failed the certification exam.

                          This was a major revelation since Barrett had provided supposed expert testimony as a psychiatrist and had testified in numerous court cases. Barrett also had said that he was a legal expert even though he had no formal legal training.

                          The most damning testimony before the jury, under the intense cross-examination by Negrete, was that Barrett had filed similar defamation lawsuits against almost 40 people across the country within the past few years and had not won one single one at trial.

                          During the course of his examination, Barrett also had to concede his ties to the AMA, Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and Food & Drug Administration (FDA).
                          "Your actions speak to me so loud, I can not hear a single word you are saying."

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Crabbcakes View Post
                            That happened to me, too. Bastard is a mild term. My family was on welfare for quite a while (Mom worked her ass off and got off it years ago, but yeah, we were honestly grateful it was there while we used it...), and the local dentist who treated me as a middle-schooler (and who accepted the government poor-people medical card) did the same thing. If I could, I wouldn't sue for compensation - I think drilling and filling the same unnecessary fillings would be good...
                            Ha ha! Agreed. The dentist who abused my teeth is one of the most miserable people I have ever met. Looking back I can hear the deceit in his voice when he told me I needed another couple of fillings. He put in a grand total of 7, all very shallow with a very large surface area.

                            At least the fillings were easy to get replaced, and the private dentist I consulted is a really good guy. They were replaced in 3 sessions placed a month apart, with a rubber dam. Total cost was about 420.

                            Within 6 months the swelling in my hands and feet had gone down and I was down a shoe size. As soon as the last fillings went I no longer had an attack of cattarh every time I used a phone. Also, my blood pressure gradually went up to a normal level as I lost weight. And I no longer felt cold all the time during the winter.

                            Mercury poisoning is easy to dismiss for the lucky majority who claim to be perfectly healthy with a mouthful of the stuff.

                            The other problem with mercury fillings is that they can cause teeth to crack when they are deep.
                            F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
                              Within 6 months the swelling in my hands and feet had gone down and I was down a shoe size. As soon as the last fillings went I no longer had an attack of cattarh every time I used a phone. Also, my blood pressure gradually went up to a normal level as I lost weight. And I no longer felt cold all the time during the winter.
                              I am glad you are feeling better!!
                              I have a mantra that I have spouted for years... "If I eat right, I feel right. If I feel right, I exercise right. If I exercise right, I think right. If I think right, I eat right..." Phil-SC

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
                                At least the fillings were easy to get replaced, and the private dentist I consulted is a really good guy. They were replaced in 3 sessions placed a month apart, with a rubber dam. Total cost was about 420.

                                .
                                Can I ask how long ago this was? Sounds quite a good price to me!
                                I'm not a complete idiot! There's parts missing!!

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