Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why did Totalitarian Agriculture take hold 10,000 years ago?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Why did Totalitarian Agriculture take hold 10,000 years ago?

    Totalitarian agriculture is the type where you dominate an entire region of land so that it only produces human food. Other types of agriculture include nomadic herding, growing just a few crops for supplementation of diet, and basically treating the wild as a garden which you occasionally influence by spreading seeds for foods you like and maybe cutting out a few plants that compete.

    A couple reinforcing feedback loops are what made T.A. grow to cover the entire world.

    1. Hunter-Gatherers are defeated:
    T.A. people can outcompete H.G. people because of increased food surplus and division of labor. Their soldiers can train every day, they can spend more time developing war technologies, and the soldiers get their food handed for them while the H.G. people have to get their food while they are supposed to be fighting off an army. Also, the T.A. have the advantage in numbers considering the surplus of food brings on population boom in all cases. T.A. peoples always had to expand because they would always overrun their resources and/or have more population than their land could handle. They would then kill or subdue H.G. people until their own needs were met. This is how it grew geographically.


    2. Old Memes Erased, New Memes created:
    People basically strayed from old ways. They forgot there were better options of living. They then, even in the face of the truth, sought to idealize their new lifestyle. This is seen in all the religions that followed which claim suffering, etc is innate and good for humans. People began to slowly transform into utopian-seeking, blame-throwing, resource-consuming, and self-righteous people that we see today. This is how people want to STAY, instead of leave this ridiculous arrangement of mostly being slaves to a small percentage upper class.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I would now like to add one new element to this transformation that might explain how it FIRST happened before these feedback loops really took hold. I just read a couple books. "The Addictive Personality" and "The Power of Habit." What I try to comprehend as the power process, the drive for achievement, the response to stress....now has two more labels for me: habit, addiction. We live our whole lives based upon habits because we can't consciously make every single decision.

    The crux of my point came when I was reading the first of the two books. It talks about what leads one to develop addictions, which are really just stronger-than-normal habits. Here are some situations where one is more prone:
    -After the loss of a loved one
    -After the loss of status
    -After a loss of ideals or dreams
    -After the loss of friendships
    -When facing new social challenges or isolation
    -When leaving one's family

    In life, things cycle between good and bad. The choice is to either accept this, or to try to make the bad times better times. The addict's brain trys to control these downward cycles more than others. The addict may not be able to control his life situation, but he can control his happiness by relying on something he knows will consistently bring him sanity and happiness.

    I think what happened is some short of trauma to a certain group of people where T.A. first emerged.
    -Was there too much fighting among tribes, so one tribe decided to go off and be on it's own by tending land as in T.A?
    -Could there have been a sway in memes enough that people got addicted to their "side job" of herding or growing just a few crops?
    -Was it a climate shift that caused a cultural trauma of limited food availability, possibly great death numbers? This could have created a meme to "make even more sure next time that there is extra food saved up"?
    -A rogue group of traumatized people left a H.G. tribe after being unrespected or unliked, and they decide to control their happiness by working extra hard during the day until they were working all day and dominating whole regions of land?
    -If T.A. originated in the Fertile Crescent when the area was fully lush, maybe there was too much food to go around? Maybe populations grew* denser than normal for H.G. peoples, so there were extra laborers around during the day with nothing to do. Plus, there could have been extra competition for territory with all tribes having tons of "disposable" fighters. This competition could technically have bled into sexual selection. (Maybe competition was high for mates, so some males started growing more advanced gardens to show how awesome they were. Although hmmm...men don't really do that nowadays) All this could have been a traumatic experience that lead to some people trying T.A. as a peacekeeping idea and as a way to stay busy during the day.


    Thoughts?

    *One more thought here spills in from something I mentioned in the Primal Attraction thread. The Mt. Toba explosion 70,000 years ago apaprently reduced human world population to about 5,000. This event could have selected for people who were more fertile than average and lead to more potential for rapid population growth in the event of food surplus. Maybe it was a double edged sword in some places where food was too rich because it caused too much bickering (since people innately fight). When T.A. came, this capacity for reproduction was called on again as it aided in providing greater use of the increased surplus than before. In other words, population wouldn't have grown as much if the same event had occured before the Mt. Toba event.
    Last edited by wiltondeportes; 05-31-2012, 12:11 PM.

  • #2
    You assume it was totalitarian and that 10k years ago was indeed the beginning.
    Starting Date: Dec 18, 2010
    Starting Weight: 294 pounds
    Current Weight: 235 pounds
    Goal Weight: 195 pounds

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by kenn View Post
      You assume it was totalitarian and that 10k years ago was indeed the beginning.
      That doesn't change any of the points. 10,000 is a guestimate that's easy to spout off. 12,000 might be more accurate. 20,000 might even be the real age. Eventually it must have been totalitarian because that's what we have now, and it had to have crossed over at SOME point.

      Are you proposing some unique age to our mother culture though?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
        That doesn't change any of the points. 10,000 is a guestimate that's easy to spout off. 12,000 might be more accurate. 20,000 might even be the real age. Eventually it must have been totalitarian because that's what we have now, and it had to have crossed over at SOME point.

        Are you proposing some unique age to our mother culture though?
        The oldest writings are from 4BCE, so yes it is a lot of conjecture as to whether it was totolitarian. suppose it arose 10k, 12k, 20k ago that leaves a lot of time for things to change.

        I'm not sure what you're claiming is the mother culture.
        Starting Date: Dec 18, 2010
        Starting Weight: 294 pounds
        Current Weight: 235 pounds
        Goal Weight: 195 pounds

        Comment


        • #5
          Did you know that savior-styled religions- the kind where the point of life is to get the hell off of Earth- started at about the same time as agriculture? Before that, we were perfectly happy to stay right here . . .
          http://cattaillady.com/ My blog exploring the beginning stages of learning how to homestead. With the occasional rant.

          Originally Posted by TheFastCat: Less is more more or less

          And now I have an Etsy store: CattailsandCalendula

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Man is Truth
            truth, totally point kenn.

            those massive and perfectly aligned totally-time-line-defying megaliths that speckle the planet could have been built by whole populations loving the idea of immortal monuments that look fuckin awesome, and traded their labor.
            If I were a believer in the sun I would totally donate labor to honoring him.
            Starting Date: Dec 18, 2010
            Starting Weight: 294 pounds
            Current Weight: 235 pounds
            Goal Weight: 195 pounds

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by kenn View Post
              The oldest writings are from 4BCE, so yes it is a lot of conjecture as to whether it was totolitarian. suppose it arose 10k, 12k, 20k ago that leaves a lot of time for things to change.

              I'm not sure what you're claiming is the mother culture.
              It is conjecture, but that's all science is to start out. Hypothesis, experiment, conclusion.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by kenn View Post
                The oldest writings are from 4BCE, so yes it is a lot of conjecture as to whether it was totolitarian. suppose it arose 10k, 12k, 20k ago that leaves a lot of time for things to change.

                I'm not sure what you're claiming is the mother culture.
                Plato's dialogues? Euripides? Aristotle? Aristophanes? More recently Julius Caesar, with amongst others his perfectly formed modern paperback, The Conquest Of Gaul. All written before 4BC and not oral traditions later transcribed (like Hesiod).

                Not making a point about this thread just dates, as I I've not read it and suspect the thread to be most probably All Wrong, or Wrongditudenalism Run Rampant. And WTF, it's called BC.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by billp View Post
                  Plato's dialogues? Euripides? Aristotle? Aristophanes? More recently Julius Caesar, with amongst others his perfectly formed modern paperback, The Conquest Of Gaul. All written before 4BC and not oral traditions later transcribed (like Hesiod).

                  Not making a point about this thread just dates, as I I've not read it and suspect the thread to be most probably All Wrong, or Wrongditudenalism Run Rampant. And WTF, it's called BC.
                  Meant 4KBCE
                  Starting Date: Dec 18, 2010
                  Starting Weight: 294 pounds
                  Current Weight: 235 pounds
                  Goal Weight: 195 pounds

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by billp View Post
                    And WTF, it's called BC.
                    BC = Before Christ
                    BCE = Before the Common Era

                    Means the same thing...just takes the religious reference out of it.
                    "Imagine all the people, living life in peace..."

                    "Nothing will work unless you do."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Well to wade in with my 2 pence worth (I think that's a UK 10c )

                      I think agriculture meant power and status for leaders and protection and security for followers and jobs hitting people on the head for those that like violence but don't have the brains to lead. A larger group can be controlled than in a HG tribe, meaning the strong leader/s (or mad dictators) has more power, more people to control and thus more personal security/comfort in their life (taxes) so there is their motivation for begining to form this type of society. Those that want a quite life will seek the protection and security of a stong leader, giving up their freedom in exhange. This system is reinfoced by those that loved to hunt and risk life and limb in adrenalie fueled battle with prey or predator or fellow human seeing an opportuninty to do this full time and not have to worry about providing their own food, they protect the masses as full time warrior and keep the masses in line as policemen/hired goons.

                      That process makes logical sence to me, though it is only based on my observations and interpretations of how the world today works - small group of people with most of the power/wealth, most people go along with the system as they think they are better off this way, a number of people act as enforcerers for the system.

                      I am a full card carrying conspiray thoery hippy nutjob though*



                      *this disclaimer is made to throw off the govenment who are watching our every more ;D
                      You know all those pictures of Adam and Eve where they have belly button? Think about it..................... take as long as you need........................

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I wonder if copper had something to do with it.

                        World's oldest Copper Age settlement found - Hindustan Times

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          ~12,000 years ago is, I believe, the time that a chance mutation happened in wheat in a region in the middle east. Scientists looked at the DNA of that type of wheat and worked out that this mutation made the grain stick to the head of the wheat instead of dropping off easily. This would have been a fatal mutation otherwise, but for the fact that people found these grains easier to gather than the ones that had fallen to the ground, but they still dropped some of what they gathered and the mutation was passed on and eventually people began to deliberately keep and cultivate the seeds.

                          ~12,000 years old is also the reported age of the oldest known carved stone temple/gathering place, nearby where this mutation happened. Can't remember the name of the place off the top of my head but the stones are intricately carved and huge, so are evidence that there was already a division of labour at the same time as this wheat revolution was happening. There may already have been a glut of food thanks to domestication of livestock or other types of crops perhaps.
                          Start weight: 238 lbs (March 2012)
                          Current weight: 205 lbs (July 2012)
                          Loss so far: 33 lbs!!!
                          WOE: Primal + IF
                          Movements: Hiking, sprinting.
                          Goal: to see my abs some time in 2013!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tribal Rob View Post
                            Well to wade in with my 2 pence worth (I think that's a UK 10c )
                            I call it tuppence. It's not just a Mary Poppins thing, some Brits still say it!
                            Start weight: 238 lbs (March 2012)
                            Current weight: 205 lbs (July 2012)
                            Loss so far: 33 lbs!!!
                            WOE: Primal + IF
                            Movements: Hiking, sprinting.
                            Goal: to see my abs some time in 2013!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Amazon.com: Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies (9780393317558): Jared M. Diamond: Books

                              Jared Diamond convincingly argues that geographical and environmental factors shaped the modern world. Societies that had had a head start in food production advanced beyond the hunter-gatherer stage, and then developed religion --as well as nasty germs and potent weapons of war --and adventured on sea and land to conquer and decimate preliterate cultures. A major advance in our understanding of human societies, Guns, Germs, and Steel chronicles the way that the modern world came to be and stunningly dismantles racially based theories of human history. Winner of the Pulitzer Prize, the Phi Beta Kappa Award in Science, the Rhone-Poulenc Prize, and the Commonwealth club of California's Gold Medal.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X