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  • #61
    Dr. Seuss was a socialist/communist

    Smurfs are communists
    Starting Date: Dec 18, 2010
    Starting Weight: 294 pounds
    Current Weight: 235 pounds
    Goal Weight: 195 pounds

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    • #62
      Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
      That made you seem really naive and callow to me. It's as if you have no idea what human suffering and compassion is (in either case).
      A great deal of human suffering is self-inflicted. Exactly how much of my wealth (which represents nothing less sacred than hours of my life) should be allocated to ease the suffering of those who have given themselves cancer by smoking cigarrettes, or diabetes from poor eating habits, or injuries due to thrill-seeking?

      The answer, of course, is "as much as the state wants". If I don't comply, my freedom will eventually be taken, at gunpoint if necessary, at which point your wealth will pay for my imprisonment.

      The error in your thinking is the presumed connection between the state and human compassion.

      Cro-Magnon 1 | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program

      "Analysis of the skeletons found at the rock shelter indicates that the humans of this time period led a physically tough life. In addition Cro-Magnon 1s fungal infection, several of the individuals found at the shelter had fused vertebrae in their necks indicating traumatic injury, and the adult female found at the shelter had survived for some time with a skull fracture. The survival of the individuals with such ailments is indicative of group support and care, which allowed their injuries to heal."

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Nicator View Post
        A great deal of human suffering is self-inflicted. Exactly how much of my wealth (which represents nothing less sacred than hours of my life) should be allocated to ease the suffering of those who have given themselves cancer by smoking cigarrettes, or diabetes from poor eating habits, or injuries due to thrill-seeking?

        The answer, of course, is "as much as the state wants". If I don't comply, my freedom will eventually be taken, at gunpoint if necessary, at which point your wealth will pay for my imprisonment.
        I think that the flaw in yoru logic is that you are perceiving of it as 'your' money. People are paid salaries in an amount that already factors in that part of it will be apportioned as tax.

        I think that humans are fairly arrogant in terms of perceiving themselves as somehow existing outside of the rest of the universe almost. When we 'own' land, we don't really own it. We're merely holding it in trust for the next generation.

        Originally posted by Nicator View Post
        The error in your thinking is the presumed connection between the state and human compassion.
        Actually, I do think of the public health system as being an expression of the state's compassion. And evidence that the US is a less compassionate society than the rest of the first world.

        Originally posted by Grok View Post
        The public universities are almost as expensive as the private ones. The universities can get away with charging whatever price they want for tuition because the student loans are guaranteed by the government.

        The high cost of education today is a direct result of government involvement, namely government guaranteed student loans.
        This is completely false. The high cost of education is a direct result of governments *moving away* from socialist policies (where education was entirely paid for by the government, barring a token amount) so that now students pay a share of their education costs.

        Originally posted by Grok View Post
        Why do you need a gun to build a road?

        Can you even answer that one simple question?
        What is your fascination with guns? I mean, I understand you're an american and it's like an article of faith to believe in gun ownership (just like 'freedom'...) but seriously? The government doesn't need guns to build a road (I guess unless there's raiders in the hills or something...).

        Governments fulfil several disparate functions. You might as well ask why the state needs to employ a teacher in order to provide healthcare services to the public. It's a ridiculous question.
        Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

        Griff's cholesterol primer
        5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
        Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
        TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
        bloodorchid is always right

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Grok View Post
          What do you think people did in this country before we had medicare and medicaid? Do you actually think sick people were just dying in the streets without being taken care of?
          yes, actually.

          you see the process prior to insurance was either you could afford it on your own, or you couldn't and you had to go with either charity or nothing. charity often only covers so much -- so many people -- so effectively, a lot of people were dying without medical care.

          it happens in the modern world as well. the issue of 'access to care' is not just about distribution of the care resources (doctors, medications, technology distribution) but also the cost of that care and whether or not it is afforded.

          Education is a similar example. In areas where government doesn't fund schooling (several schools in africa), they are run via parent-paid tuition or charity (or a combination there of). This means that many children do not become educated, in particular if their parents aren't educated (and therefore cannot homeschool) or their children don't have access to charity to provide the education.

          That being said, I'm not saying that the state is the answer per se.

          But, yes, people do simply get sick without treatment and die and what not if they can't afford medical care and don't have access to charitable care.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Grok View Post
            Please do, I'm like the lone anarchist here amongst a den of statists. I need all the back-up I can get.
            Um... not anymore.

            Shhh! Don't tell anyone!
            Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

            My Primal Journal

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Grok View Post
              I hear Chavez had to fly to another country to get his cancer treated, I guess the government healthcare in Venezuela just wasn't good enough for him.
              He flew to Cuba.

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              • #67
                Anarchism is leftwing. It comes from Bakunin, Goldman, etc... The capitalist agit-prop machine has appropriated a lot of it to deputize rubes into carrying their water.

                Anarchism and private property? And how exactly is that private property defended without the state? That's the raison d'etre of the state.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Rojo View Post
                  Anarchism and private property? And how exactly is that private property defended without the state? That's the raison d'etre of the state.
                  Chapter 08 - Protection of Life and Property

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
                    I think that the flaw in yoru logic is that you are perceiving of it as 'your' money. People are paid salaries in an amount that already factors in that part of it will be apportioned as tax.
                    This is just like...so mind bogglingly statist that I just...I just don't know what to say.

                    Let me see if I can actually try and comprehend what you are trying to tell me.

                    You are saying that if the government steals my money before it reaches my bank account, it was never my money to begin with?

                    What really boggles the mind, if this is what you are actually saying, is that you actually expect me to accept that as truth.

                    I don't even want to bother replying to your other nonsense right now, I'm not in the mood for politics as I'm going to get a large dose of it tomorrow at the Nevada GOP State Convention.

                    This kind of stuff is just so far out there that it encourages me that people are reading it and discovering just how flawed statist arguments actually are. I'm shining the light of truth on everyone by illustrating the ridiculousness of your responses.

                    This kind of logic is the very definition of a wingnut. Someone who is so deluded that they actually try and convince themselves that there is no theft taking place.

                    Quite a fascinating psychological study actually.

                    wingnut: noun. someone who thinks theft of wages is not actually theft because the theft took place somewhere between the point where the payer paid the payee and the payee received the money.
                    Last edited by Grok; 05-04-2012, 10:54 PM.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Rojo View Post
                      He flew to Cuba.
                      Oh man, those Cuban medical facilities will kill him for sure. I think it's more likely they sneaked him over to Florida while nobody was looking.

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                      • #71

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                        • #72
                          The money is debt argument is a fallacy. The argument that you can't have money without debt is also a fallacy.

                          The US government can wipe off all the debt on the books overnight if it wishes to. It's called defaulting or restructuring the debt. A 100% default is when you just don't pay anything back at all, a restructuring is where both parties agree that you cannot fully pay back the debt, but you try to pay back as much as possible, say fifty cents on the dollar.

                          To actually pay back the debt is politically untenable because taxes would have to be raised to 100% and the army would have to come in and force everyone to work as slaves in order to pay off foreign bankers. They are trying to do that now in Europe and it's not working out so well. I hear the government in the Netherlands is resigning to the Queen because they don't want to implement the austerity.

                          Europe will fall apart before their debt is repaid, and there is a good chance that the US will far apart before we repay ours. I think with Obama or Romney in office there is a good chance the US will break apart into sovereign states. Ron Paul, or another minarchist is our only hope of keeping the union together.

                          If US states started enacting laws to secede and create their own currencies, I don't know if Obama or Romney would follow through with Lincoln's insanity to keep the union together and start killing off Americans in order to force them to use Federal Reserve notes. Perhaps they would, what do you think?
                          Last edited by Grok; 05-05-2012, 12:19 AM.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Grok View Post
                            Please do, I'm like the lone anarchist here amongst a den of statists. I need all the back-up I can get.
                            You're not alone.

                            I dont have time to get into it, but most people don't realize that anarchy is peaceful and non-aggressive. It means no rulers, not no rules. The non-aggression principle is promoting goodwill toward others and basically minding your own life until someone requests your presence in theirs. It baffles me why people are so opposed to a free and voluntary society where there are no monopolies on theft and violence. Propaganda has made anarchy out to be a bunch of rabid teenage punks going insane, when it's actually just a logical and peaceful philosophy based on reason and free will.

                            I'd love to have a civil discussion about it. A voluntary society is far from perfect, there will never be a perfect world so long as humans are... Human. There can only be freedom vs. Tyranny and differing degrees of each. I say zero tyranny is the only fair and humane course of a better society.
                            | My (food) Blog | Follow me on Facebook | Pinterest | Twitter |

                            It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men. - Samuel Adams

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by j3nn View Post
                              You're not alone.
                              Hi Jenn. I know I'm not alone, but sometimes it feels that way. There is a never ending supply of statists that the public schools keep churning out.

                              There is a big day for Ron Paul tomorrow here in Nevada. I ended up taking a long nap in the middle of the day today and now I'm up late. But nothing a Starbucks can't fix. Ron Paul will be here speaking tomorrow at our national convention.

                              In Nevada there is a rule this year which says the delegates have to be bound to Nevada's Presidential beauty contest, but we should be able to change that rule at the convention to unbind those delegates.

                              I even heard news today that there are rules at the national level which says a state cannot bind any delegates.

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                              • #75
                                I mostly don't like how you communicate about it. seems to me that whether someone is posting a recipe for gluten free chocolate cake or talking about their new shoes or posting some construct about taking personal responsibility for your own success, it always come up as some sort of statist-slavery accusation.

                                It's like, jesus, you have a hammer and therefore everything must be nails.

                                For my own part, I'm not entirely facile with the breadth of material, but I've like RP for a long time, and it got me curious about it all. I have several friends who are in the sovereignty movement, which is great for discussion on different ideologies.

                                But, on the other side, I really like government -- i think they are interesting human institutions, flawed as they are. Not saying they are at all absolute. It's nearly like studying some interesting creature and it's adaptability.

                                So, my own opinions run the gammut, and I like to think about ideas, but at the end of the day -- my process is constantly shifting based on what i'm thinking about at a given time.

                                Turns out that sometimes being a thinker just means you keep on thinking, and not necessarily deciding that one way is the right idea or focus. That is to say, I can agree with logical inferences and philosophies, and likewise I can also disagree with it. Crazy how that works out.

                                For some reason, that always works out for people as thinking me weak-minded. It actually means I simply have the capacity to think freely on a given topic -- seeing the plus and minuses of various positions.

                                But, I beg out either way on here. I noticed it basically got nowhere. Even humor about it fell flat. lol

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