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  • #46
    1



    Plank: All I ask is that if we have to go somewhere with you in your cramped car, or if you have to squeeze into the elevator with us, that you not make offensive comments about us being beached whales or disgusting pigs.


    Just like you're supposed to treat gay people like people, and black people like people, and women like people, treat us like people. That's all I'm saying. And I already said I did not want to have the economics-of-airlines conversation. I still feel it's unconscionable that a grieving woman should have to drive a thousand miles over three days to be at her mother's deathbed simply because she's obese, while a skinny woman could just hop on a plane and get there in two hours. Airline economics or not, you're not going to change my opinion on that point.


    What was humiliating about buying three seats for two big (and in one case, tall - my husband is 6'5) people was the looks we got from the other people on the plane, and the comments we overheard from people about the fatasses in the front row, and the pitying looks we got from the flight attendants. Those were all completely uncalled for, and it happens all the damn time to us. I had already acknowledged the "objective limitations of our physiology," and we still got the nasty comments and glares. That's what I'm objecting to.

    Primal eating in a nutshell: If you are hungry, eat Primal food until you are satisfied (not stuffed). Then stop. Wait until you're hungry again. Repeat.

    Looking for my Cholesterol Primer? Here it is: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...mer-(Attempt-2)


    Ditch the scale!: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread33283.html

    My Success Story: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread30615.html

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    • #47
      1



      OK, fair enough. ;-)

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      • #48
        1



        arthur, you're flat-out wrong about how most people get fat. You are once again perpetuating the myth that fat people get fat on junk food. I never ate junk food when I was gaining weight. I ate less than a thousand calories a day, most days, and most of it was the supposedly "healthy" food I was told to eat - low-fat high-carb food like grains, beans, lean poultry - never red meat! - and I was told that this would make me thinner. IT NEVER DID.


        You keep on saying you're not trying to offend. I believe you. I believe you've never looked at your beliefs about fat people or seen how stereotypical and wrong they are. But now I'm asking you to look at them and realize that they are stereotypical and wrong, and to stop expressing them and learn a better way.

        Primal eating in a nutshell: If you are hungry, eat Primal food until you are satisfied (not stuffed). Then stop. Wait until you're hungry again. Repeat.

        Looking for my Cholesterol Primer? Here it is: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...mer-(Attempt-2)


        Ditch the scale!: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread33283.html

        My Success Story: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread30615.html

        Comment


        • #49
          1



          Sooze--That was my experience as well. My first diet was at 10 years old, because the doctor said I was 10 percent overweight and he scared and shamed me. Yes, I was 10--but I was also nearly sexually mature, taller than any other girl in my class, and at 5 foot 2 I weighed 110 pounds. When I think of the spiral of diet, loss, gain, and shame that man sent me down, at 110 pounds, I could cry.


          In high school, at my thinnest and most athletic, I was exercising 2 hours a day, playing a sport, and eating nothing but coffee, a salad, and a cheese bagel. I weighed 135 pounds at 5 foot 4, and I was the fat girl. Nothing was good enough for the high school culture I was in at the time. When I think back to those years, and how good I looked, and think, "If I had just stopped dieting and worked on being healthy in mind and body," I could despair.


          I have literally lost a ton--and gained it back, and more. The pasta and bran muffin diets of the 80's probably did more damage than most; ironically, compared to most other diets, the vegetarian years were probably my healthiest in terms of weight, though I was pretty sick from being a vegetarian and could not sustain it...


          The last time I lost eighty pounds was about 3 years ago--it was a gradual, healthy loss, and I was happy. Inexplicably, however, there came a point at which nothing I did could slake my appetite--I ate more, and more, and was constantly starving, and increasingly sick. I gained 100 pounds in about 18 months. Part of the problem was that I'd become diabetic, and no matter how much I ate, my cells were telling me I was starving from insulin resistance.


          But is this my fault? Sure. I made some bad choices. I didn't have willpower at crucial times in my life. I chose to be sedentary when I could have chosen to be active. I indulged on pizza and Krispy Kremes like a whole lot of other people, and I should have realized that this affected me more, and differently; in fact, I did realize it. I do wish I'd had some self esteem at 10, and 15, and 20. I didn't have the cognitive skills to say, "The Mediterranean diet does not seem to be appropriate for my metabolism," and I'm a smart gal--I probably could have, if I'd had the presence of mind and awareness of body to see it, but I didn't.


          Now I'm broken, and I can't be fixed, and I blame myself every day, and I deserve a lot of that blame, if that makes anyone feel better about fat people taking responsibility.


          As for airlines--they're a service industry. If someone pays for the service, they should be ready and willing to provide it. Seems to me they aren't serving thin people terribly well, either--but it sure makes everyone else feel better about themselves when the straw man is a fatty.

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          • #50
            1



            2 issues here:


            1) "Obese people don't choose to be obese."

            Yes, they do. They don't say "Today, I want to be fat." Instead, they say "Today, I want Chipotle/Pizza Hut/cookies/etc."


            2) Moreover, you cannot fault CW for ALL of society's problems. I lost most of my weight and normalized my lipids by following CW. I tracked my calories and divided up my food by the FDA food pyramid. I didn't starve and I liked what I was eating. Some people are obese because they eat junk, or go an entire day without eating and binge at night, or never set foot out of their office or house to do any physical activity. NOBODY is obese because they eat a cup of cereal for breakfast instead of cage-free eggs, turkey breast on whole wheat instead of roast pork, or grain-fed beef instead of grass-fed.


            I chose to eat Paleo because I believe it is the healthiest method of eating out there. But just because it's the best doesn't mean it's the only way.

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            • #51
              1



              Oh, gottaluvalab....I do not believe for one second that it cannot be fixed. It's only over when it's over, when it's time for your dirt nap, yanno?


              I am absolutely 100% convinced (by the science and by my own response here, and my history) that people like us can get and stay fit. We can repair those metabolisms. I think bottom line is we might have to be more careful of 'slips' but I know it is possible. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be here.


              I think a couple of things are really critical for those of us with cycles of dieting in our histories.

              First, we MUST build muscle. Strength training is critical. Second, we MUST avoid simple sugars and refined grains like the dickens.


              If we do this, in the context of the PB blueprint, we can heal our bodies' engines and structure will follow.


              Thread hijack over, thank you...

              Sooze

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              • #52
                1



                Sooze--There are absolutely things about me that can be repaired--but there are things that can't. I guess in in the biggest picture, we all have things that can't be fixed, because time is generally neither gentle nor kind to mortal creatures. These days I'm particularly sensitive to that fact.


                I have not given up on myself, believe me.


                Some days I've given up on other people, though--Griff apparently hasn't. So thank you, Griff, for bringing up this topic, which has been on my mind the last day or two as well, given some of the other posts and comments I've been reading here.


                Back to the thread...

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                • #53
                  1



                  @Griff: "And I already said I did not want to have the economics-of-airlines conversation. I still feel it's unconscionable that a grieving woman should have to drive a thousand miles over three days to be at her mother's deathbed simply because she's obese, while a skinny woman could just hop on a plane and get there in two hours. Airline economics or not, you're not going to change my opinion on that point."


                  Gotcha. This is a purely emotional arguement. It has always been true that if you cannot pay for a service, you don't get it. And it has never mattered to the industry if someone is dying across the country.


                  It is unconscionable, I don't disagree with that for a moment. I doubt that the industry will change for an emotional arguement, however. It only changes when the bottom dollar is changed.

                  Start weight: 250 - 06/2009
                  Current weight: 199
                  Goal: 145

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    1



                    I've always been thin my whole life, but I totally agree that overweight people should not be thought less of because of their weight. That is actually a CW myth--"you're overweight because you eat too much and have no will power and are lazy" which is COMPLETELY UNTRUE!!! -- as Gary Taubes proves in GCBC! I didn't really know any of that stuff about airline seats etc, and find it rather surprising. But I guess I have to agree with the people who pointed out that on an airplane, you are paying for space for you and your luggage. I don't see why they couldn't just make some bigger seats that cost a bit more? That seems fair to me.

                    My problem is getting someone who is overweight to take ME seriously about nutrition advice, because, truthfully, I "don't know what its like to be fat." At my fattest, people still thought I was "too skinny".

                    But I have to agree with Mark's post that just because someone is overweight, doesn't necessarily mean that they don't know what they're talking about regarding nutrition and exercise. In my reply to that, I said that I'd be more inclined to trust someone who "walks thier talk" by which I meant that I'd be more inclined to trust someone who follows thier own nutrition advice and is benefiting from it--for example either by currently being fit, or being in the process of getting fit (still overweight but getting healthier and losing weight). Actually, I think that the person who is maybe still a little overweight, but losing weight fast and getting better bloodwork etc...by eating the primal diet would probably have an easier time convincing others to join in than someone like me who has always been skinny. Its too easy for people to write me off as one of those "genetically gifted" folks, and decide that what works for me will obviously not work for them, you know what I mean? Even though I have a whole bunch of problems (not visable ones) that have been helped by the primal diet! In conclusion, I think getting the whole story is important!

                    Oh, and P.S.--just wanted to mention that I've never actually been on an airplane...so I'm not really an authority on the topic LOL. Now that I think about it, I'D probably be uncomfortable in a regular airplane seat, since I am 6'tall, with VERY long legs!!

                    My etsy shop: http://www.etsy.com/shop/UrthForged
                    *hand-carved wood and bone jewelry*

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                    • #55
                      1



                      Griff, I completely agree with the sentiment that the mockery of obese individuals is cruel and shallow. No one should be judged soley upon any physical characteristic, even if it is a characteristic--like obesity--that on the surface may appear to be a result of an individual's choice.


                      Of course, no one truly chooses to be obese. Besides misinformation promulgated by the food industry, there are also many circumstantial factors which are often overlooked. For example, there is a trend of obesity seen in survivors of childhood sexual abuse; the thought is that abused men and women may subconsciously seek safety from sexual predation by being overweight. One study (of many) discussing this: http://bit.ly/aSQ2ph


                      I am not insinuating that anyone who is overweight is a sexual abuse survivor; my point was simply that there are many factors which impinge upon the suppose "choice" of being obese. Free will is highly subject to environmental determinism.


                      However, I do not think that changing public infrastructure to accomodate obese individuals is a solution. Obesity is unhealthy, and to shift the culutural paradigm to label obesity as acceptable is actually more detrimental to obese individuals. Maybe I am completely misguided in my thinking, but I see making concessions of physical space to be a method of enabling obesity. Whatever the underlying cause of obesity for any individual person, encouraging the persistence of an unhealthy condition does not benefit anyone.


                      In my opinion, the activism should be focused upon mediating the root causes of obesity rather than the effects. (Again, just my opinion; I do not intend to offend and I apologize if I have.)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        1



                        Is it unconscionable for an airline to refuse a seat to a skinny person who can't afford it, but whose mother is dying?


                        As for whether it is a person's own fault that they are fat, I think that depends on the individual.


                        Some people make a tremendous effort to eat well, to the best of their knowledge, and still gain fat because they've been given bad information.


                        Other people choose to eat poorly even though they know better. (For example, I have a good friend who is obese. He has listened willingly to my explanation about carbs, etc, done some research on his own, and agrees that it's the right way to go. BUT, he told me just the other day that he's going to try cutting calories and working out instead "because I like those foods too much. I don't want to give them up.")


                        While both individuals have the same human value, I must admit that I have greater respect for the first. (The same goes for skinny people who do or don't try to cultivate health, as best they know how.)

                        Nightlife ~ Chronicles of Less Urban Living, Fresh from In the Night Farm ~ Idaho's Primal Farm! http://inthenightlife.wordpress.com/

                        Latest post: Stop Being Stupid

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                        • #57
                          1



                          I feel like there are gross generalizations on both sides of this argument.

                          If a person is fat, they are fat. It's a fact.

                          It doesn't matter how that person got there, that person is already there.

                          I was "clinically" obese for years (maybe I still am, haven't looked at my BF% or BMI in a while) and, boy, did I get treated like shit all the way up to sophomore year of high school. Did I wish people would stop seeing me as fat? Yes. Was I still fat, regardless? Yes.


                          It's a fact. And it's also reversible. The information is out there. Regardless of how you got there, you can always turn around.

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                          • #58
                            1



                            Shine, can I be you when I grow up? LOL.


                            Thank you. That is exactly what I as getting at with my question in an earlier post.

                            Start weight: 250 - 06/2009
                            Current weight: 199
                            Goal: 145

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                            • #59
                              1



                              <thread hijack>

                              And I want to be as articulate as Shine when I grow up!

                              </end thread hijack>


                              Shine, thank you for giving another perspective of what leads to people becoming fat. It&#39;s not always making the wrong choice, as Arthur believes.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                1



                                Katt and maba, you are both too sweet. I was kind of anxious about posting that reply, because I really really do not want to offend anyone. Thank you both for assuring me that it did not.

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