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  • Originally posted by Scott F View Post
    No unless there's an energy source they used that we aren't aware of. You cannot have a complex society without an energy source capable of supporting that complexity. If such a culture did exist the evidence for it would be around, porcelain toilets for example.
    Uh, the sun is the energy source?

    Just because we're unsustainably using up stored reserves of solar energy in the form of oil doesn't mean that every civilization has depended on it.

    I agree that if humans were to vanish tomorrow there would be the fossil equivalent of building superstructures like the pyramid that would still be detectable a million years from now (or whenever the next literate species arose).
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

    Griff's cholesterol primer
    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
    Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
    TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
    bloodorchid is always right

    Comment


    • Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
      Uh, the sun is the energy source?

      Just because we're unsustainably using up stored reserves of solar energy in the form of oil doesn't mean that every civilization has depended on it.

      I agree that if humans were to vanish tomorrow there would be the fossil equivalent of building superstructures like the pyramid that would still be detectable a million years from now (or whenever the next literate species arose).
      I didn't say every civilization had depended upon oil. Ultimately, all energy sources come from the sun. I said complex societies/cultures -- and esp modern ones -- require huge amounts of energy and there is no replacement for the fossil fuels we've relied upon. Tainter calls it the Energy Spiral Drilling Down: Tainter and Patzek tell the energy-complexity story | Our Finite World.

      The sun is dispersed energy. Biology and geology stored up millions of years worth of that solar energy and over millions of years geology concentrated it. Rainfall is good analogy. It rains (which also is solar energy driven), using gravity geology concentrates that energy into rivers which we have dammed up to produce hydroelectric power.
      Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by alg2435 View Post
        Yeah, and feminist women try to be better than men, even to hating - when we're all equal. It's a mixed up world.
        I'm a feminist. I don't try to be better then men, what does this even mean, better at what? And I certainly don't hate them. I married one and gave birth to two more.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Scott F View Post
          That was a long read. Here's the problem I have with it, though: It assumes (as Tainter is critical of) that human "progress" is linear. But it's not. Historically, societies have grown in complexity and then collapsed. Populations collapse and a "dark age" set in.
          True, but regardless of the complexity of the society, or whether we look at it linearly, or as a rhizome, or as some other model the outcome according to what both Chris Martenson and Charles Mann are saying is - collapse, or reaching a "second inflection point" after which our numbers sharply decrease - unless we make a change.

          What I appreciated from the Mann article are the examples where some human groups have made an about face (slavery, women's rights) and it is at least hopeful because of that - or else it acts as a massively false panacea.
          Female, age 51, 5' 9"
          SW - 183 (Jan 22, 2012), CW - 159, GW - healthy.

          Met my 2012 goals by losing 24 pounds.
          2013 goals are to get fit and strong!

          Comment


          • this is the best thread ever right now

            wilton got jokes
            beautiful
            yeah you are

            Baby if you time travel back far enough you can avoid that work because the dust won't be there. You're too pretty to be working that hard.
            lol

            Comment


            • Originally posted by jojohaligo View Post
              True, but regardless of the complexity of the society, or whether we look at it linearly, or as a rhizome, or as some other model the outcome according to what both Chris Martenson and Charles Mann are saying is - collapse, or reaching a "second inflection point" after which our numbers sharply decrease - unless we make a change.
              Actually, the world population is already stabilising. It will just take two more generations in the third world.

              Hans Rosling has a number of really good presentations about this topic.

              Originally posted by jojohaligo View Post
              What I appreciated from the Mann article are the examples where some human groups have made an about face (slavery, women's rights) and it is at least hopeful because of that - or else it acts as a massively false panacea.
              Except that I think that the slavery one is actually about energy. Pre-industrial revolution, civilisation was built on the backs of slaves. Slaves were the energy source. With the widespread use of coal and steam power, the cost of a unit of energy was dramatically lowered. With oil it was lowered still further. The economics of slave ownership changed. The industrial revolution was also the main driver in womens liberation (since women can operate machinery as proficiently as men).
              Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

              Griff's cholesterol primer
              5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
              Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
              TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
              bloodorchid is always right

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Scott F View Post
                Here's one of the criticism of the education system I've seen coming from scientists like Ann Moir: If the vast majority of teachers are women and they believe gender behavior is socialized are boys being hampered by that socialization paradigm? If it's in a boy's nature to be active and roam how many of them are being accused of having ADHD when they may simply be acting genetically normal, simply because they fidget and don't stay in their chair?
                I kind of agree, though I don't think it's because women are teachers. I think teachers (male and female) are drawn to that environment, but I agree that a greater number of women are comfortable in that kind of environment.

                People that are very strong-willed, strong-minded and don't do well in overly-regulated systems will most likely not choose to be an elementary school teacher. I knew when I volunteered at my youngest son's kindergarten that I never could. Someone got the genius idea to paint lightbulbs, and one kid was running with one in his hand, so I grabbed him by his shirt collar - second nature for me, but public schools don't allow that. You're supposed to convince him to voluntarily do things your way, or maybe have a discussion and come to a consensus about proper behavior and safety and all that... with 6-year-olds.

                The desire for a passive male isn't really a female thing, it's more a product of the viewpoint of people that can function in a system like that. I have 2 sons, and they have been taught to defend themselves (and others) regardless of what the school district said. When they were in school, the policy was that defending yourself, even just enough to make the other person stop, was not allowed and was punishable. Bullshit.

                So it's not really a female thing, it's a function of the type of personailty that can thrive for 30 years in a public school type of environment, which is overly passive and regulated to the extreme.
                Durp.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by magicmerl View Post

                  Except that I think that the slavery one is actually about energy. Pre-industrial revolution, civilisation was built on the backs of slaves. Slaves were the energy source. With the widespread use of coal and steam power, the cost of a unit of energy was dramatically lowered. With oil it was lowered still further. The economics of slave ownership changed. The industrial revolution was also the main driver in womens liberation (since women can operate machinery as proficiently as men).
                  I've wondered the same thing. Martenson, and others, use the analogy of the energy slaves working for each of us making us richer than the past kings.
                  Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by RitaRose View Post
                    I kind of agree, though I don't think it's because women are teachers. I think teachers (male and female) are drawn to that environment, but I agree that a greater number of women are comfortable in that kind of environment.

                    People that are very strong-willed, strong-minded and don't do well in overly-regulated systems will most likely not choose to be an elementary school teacher. I knew when I volunteered at my youngest son's kindergarten that I never could. Someone got the genius idea to paint lightbulbs, and one kid was running with one in his hand, so I grabbed him by his shirt collar - second nature for me, but public schools don't allow that. You're supposed to convince him to voluntarily do things your way, or maybe have a discussion and come to a consensus about proper behavior and safety and all that... with 6-year-olds.
                    Yeah, that looks good on paper but won't work in practice.

                    [/QUOTE]The desire for a passive male isn't really a female thing, it's more a product of the viewpoint of people that can function in a system like that. I have 2 sons, and they have been taught to defend themselves (and others) regardless of what the school district said. When they were in school, the policy was that defending yourself, even just enough to make the other person stop, was not allowed and was punishable. Bullshit.[/QUOTE]

                    The social origin of our term "Gentleman" originates from this same desire Gentleman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                    So it's not really a female thing, it's a function of the type of personailty that can thrive for 30 years in a public school type of environment, which is overly passive and regulated to the extreme.[/QUOTE]

                    I couldn't do it. I'm too independent and have little patience for bureaucratic BS that lacks logical reasoning. But I think I'm somewhat on the Asperger's spectrum (seems to be family genetics) and one of the common traits is an intolerance such rules like the one you described.

                    When I was heavy into the martial arts (close quarter hand to hand combat stuff) I read a book called "What Cops Know." It was a personality profile book relative to different types of criminals and how they behave. The subject on male pedophiles was informative. These men genuinely like interacting with kids. So what they will do is chose a career/job that gives them social contact with kids. The ones who become teachers are often seen by students and parents as a great teacher. When the pedophile is discovered the parents are shock because they had thought highly of the man. Parents will often defend the guy. Google: "pediphile favorite teacher parents shocked" to see what I mean. It isn't just teachers. Think of any occupation that gives similar contact.

                    I've seen a lot of men go into coaching because of their love of sports. They had to teach some other class that they really weren't interested in so if you were in that class making grade was fairly easy. Most of these guys didn't stick to their coaching career, however, and ended up taking jobs (or running businesses) unrelated to their teaching/coaching degrees.
                    Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by jojohaligo View Post
                      True, but regardless of the complexity of the society, or whether we look at it linearly, or as a rhizome, or as some other model the outcome according to what both Chris Martenson and Charles Mann are saying is - collapse, or reaching a "second inflection point" after which our numbers sharply decrease - unless we make a change.

                      What I appreciated from the Mann article are the examples where some human groups have made an about face (slavery, women's rights) and it is at least hopeful because of that - or else it acts as a massively false panacea.
                      The MIT people who wrote the book Limits to Growth in the 70's did a 30 year update and another book called Beyond the Limits. Mary Logan's lecture is good up-to-date summary of those books: Dr. Mary Logan - Whither Complexity? She discusses the inflection point in a graph that she presents at approximately 20 minutes into the video.
                      Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
                        Actually, the world population is already stabilising. It will just take two more generations in the third world.

                        Hans Rosling has a number of really good presentations about this topic.


                        Except that I think that the slavery one is actually about energy. Pre-industrial revolution, civilisation was built on the backs of slaves. Slaves were the energy source. With the widespread use of coal and steam power, the cost of a unit of energy was dramatically lowered. With oil it was lowered still further. The economics of slave ownership changed. The industrial revolution was also the main driver in womens liberation (since women can operate machinery as proficiently as men).
                        Yes, interesting.

                        Originally posted by Scott F View Post
                        The MIT people who wrote the book Limits to Growth in the 70's did a 30 year update and another book called Beyond the Limits. Mary Logan's lecture is good up-to-date summary of those books: Dr. Mary Logan - Whither Complexity? She discusses the inflection point in a graph that she presents at approximately 20 minutes into the video.
                        More to study... thank you both!
                        Female, age 51, 5' 9"
                        SW - 183 (Jan 22, 2012), CW - 159, GW - healthy.

                        Met my 2012 goals by losing 24 pounds.
                        2013 goals are to get fit and strong!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by quelsen View Post
                          most of the worlds intelligence has been carefully hidden from the "white" man due to the clear knowledge that the Caucasian race in general ( Aryan and Indo Aryan alike) are just beserking genocidal destroyers looking for something to smash mindlessly.

                          Hopefully as time progresses "whites" will mature out of that infantilism. Individually many of them do very well, but as a group, sigh.

                          so of course they have to pat themselves on the back, who else will????
                          Curious that nobody here, despite being forward-thinking humanitarians that detest racism, has challenged these distasteful statements. Okay, I'm being ornery...it's not curious at all.

                          Well, at least you don't bother with the standard leftist tack of colorblindness, egalitarianism, or the old 'race is a social construct' tripe. That's a plus, by my reckoning.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Nicator View Post
                            Curious that nobody here, despite being forward-thinking humanitarians that detest racism, has challenged these distasteful statements. Okay, I'm being ornery...it's not curious at all.
                            Not, it's not curious. Because there's an element of truth behind his obvious exaggeration.

                            Originally posted by Nicator View Post
                            Well, at least you don't bother with the standard leftist tack of colorblindness, egalitarianism, or the old 'race is a social construct' tripe. That's a plus, by my reckoning.
                            Yes, it's other people who are deluded. YOU can see clearly on the issue.
                            Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                            Griff's cholesterol primer
                            5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                            Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                            TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                            bloodorchid is always right

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
                              Not, it's not curious. Because there's an element of truth behind his obvious exaggeration.


                              Yes, it's other people who are deluded. YOU can see clearly on the issue.
                              His invective was condescending, absurd, and lacking a single objective truth. There was also an element of truth behind the statement that Wilton made that was so offensive to him, but that truth doesn't suit you so you dismiss it.

                              Or do you suppose the evil white man has manipulated world I.Q. test data to put himself behind northeast asians and ashkenazi jews, but still comfortably above africans and indians?

                              Your self-loathing and self-delusion go hand in hand.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Nicator View Post
                                His invective was condescending, absurd, and lacking a single objective truth. There was also an element of truth behind the statement that Wilton made that was so offensive to him, but that truth doesn't suit you so you dismiss it.
                                I think that the 'element of truth' behind Wilton's arguement can be summarised as 'men and women are different'. And I agree with that. I don't dismiss it. But I disagree with that being used to assert positions that I think are incorrect.

                                And I think that the single 'objective' truth behind quelsen's post can be summed up as Colonialism.

                                Originally posted by Nicator View Post
                                Or do you suppose the evil white man has manipulated world I.Q. test data to put himself behind northeast asians and ashkenazi jews, but still comfortably above africans and indians?

                                Your self-loathing and self-delusion go hand in hand.
                                I think that it's either naive or ignorant to think that IQ tests don't have a cultural bias to them. Is that self-loathing?

                                Did you think that Nate Silver was self-deluded as well?
                                Last edited by magicmerl; 11-15-2012, 04:58 PM.
                                Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                                Griff's cholesterol primer
                                5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                                Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                                TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                                bloodorchid is always right

                                Comment

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