Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Feminization of Males

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • wilton.

    how long has it been since women could wipe their own asses without a man's permission?

    what's 2+2=

    stop reading the internet and get some real life experience with people of all genders
    beautiful
    yeah you are

    Baby if you time travel back far enough you can avoid that work because the dust won't be there. You're too pretty to be working that hard.
    lol

    Comment


    • I don't think it's about being brainwashed, but about the social environment and what is typical of men and women for a given place. I'm a strong, successful female, but there's definitely truth in your argument. Having lived in the American West for my entire life, where women know how to shoot guns and chop firewood, where everyone wears Carhartts and tennis shoes/hiking boots, and no one gives a shit about your brand-name purse or jacket or the latest Britney Spears song, it's easy to argue that women are just as strong and capable as men. And most women I've met out here are. But the West is a small minority of America -- I bet that most women who live in New York or Ohio or some shit like that are far from the ones out here. They probably do expect guys to help them dig their car out of the snow and stuff like that.

      I've worked jobs that required physical effort (carrying heavy equipment over rough terrain, mostly), and there was like one or two other women who did the same thing. Most of my colleagues were men -- and you're right, not a lot of women would enjoy that type of work. Personally, I loved it, but I am the outlier. I'm stronger and fitter than some guys I know, but again, I am the outlier. And a lot of these "men" are the puny weaklings who wear skinny jeans and have never lifted anything in their life -- if they put in half the effort that I do into, say, powerlifting, they'd get stronger than me. Physiology is a fact. It's not that women can't be really, really strong, but they have to put in a lot more effort to get to a level where they compete with the men when it comes to labor-intensive jobs. It goes back to the fact that it's not the lifestyle most women want, anyway.

      That reality is one that I prefer to remain isolated from, but it's difficult to ignore the negative effects that it has on society.
      We are on the same page, AmyMac. It takes a real woman to admit that she is a woman.

      The nonstop conflation of masculinity with physical aggression is telling (not just you but several other posters have done this), as is the phrase "feminist bullshit". Feminism, at its core, is the acceptance that women and men are equally valuable as human beings. It has nothing to do, necessarily, with any particular character attributes, nor does it define a set of same that are to be considered "masculine" and "feminine".

      Radical feminism can and does include these ideas and, yes, is often batshit insane, just like the Men's Rights movement, which is its equally radical opposite. Neither of these extremes is heavily represented in either our laws or our general culture; you would be hard-pressed, for example, to find a person walking down the street who would agree with the statement that "all sex is rape" (a somewhat common rad-fem meme) or that "men should be able to waive responsibility for paternity of their children" (a men's rights idea). Similarly, public policy may often be ignorant, short-sighted and misguided, but I hardly think it reasonable to suggest that some pervasive feminist conspiracy is hell-bent on "feminizing" boys.

      I don't think I need to be a brainwashed fem-bot castrato to believe that physical aggression is a negative tendency, either. I came to that conclusion all on my own the first time I got shoved off the front steps by a bigger kid at my preschool. I'm pretty sure I fell on my ass and thought some variation on the theme of "hey, that hurt and I don't like it when people hit me." As I passed through adolescence and became, myself, a large and physically imposing male adult, I learned that along with the ability to cause physical harm comes a responsibility not to do so out of aggression, nor to use my size and capacity for violence to threaten or coerce; that violence is only to be employed in the defense of self or others from aggression. No one had to indoctrinate me to bring me to this conclusion; I don't want to live in a world where aggression--either physical or implied through intimidation--is acceptable, and so I act accordingly as best I can.

      None of this is to imply that I don't have a capacity for aggression, or a desire to enact violence; that I don't feel rage and hatred; that I haven't, at one time or another, been forced to exert every fiber of my mental strength to prevent doing something to someone I would later regret. The memory of the few times I have caused someone physical harm, even unintentionally, and the sickening regret I invariably feel afterward, has always been enough to remind me to keep my head when serious violence started to seem like a good idea.

      I would argue that the cultivation of this kind of strength is superior to the kind of showy machismo that just perpetuates the antiquated feudal notions of "honor" and strength through war and conquest--whatever the modern equivalent, which mostly seems to be sports, punctuated by bar fights and invading countries full of brown people (at the upper end of the economic spectrum, of course, we also see such lovely pastimes as corporate capitalism and the endlessly inane machinations of the mostly-male political class). There was a time for that, and it was in the 13th century. We've got bigger problems to solve, and today's heroes are the people solving them, regardless of what equipment they were born with or whether they like to play with dolls or trucks.

      As for "unlocking their true masculinity", who the fuck are you to decide how a child "should" behave, how aggressive or stereotypically masculine a given teenager "ought" to be? Did you ever stop to consider that maybe we're finally arriving, as a culture, at a place where everyone feels more comfortable behaving in the way that feels most appropriate for them? That maybe we're realizing we don't need to fit everyone in a neatly-labeled box and shun them if they defy their externally-applied labels? That maybe more men are acting in ways you consider "feminine", not because someone has made them this way, but because the people that would have them deny these tendencies, just to satisfy their longing for a neat and orderly world or to assuage their fear of the Other, are thankfully fading into irrelevance? Something to think about.

      As for your allusion to the advent of modern infotainment, I fail to see how this is a gender issue. Television is an equal-opportunity stupidity machine. More and more girls and women play video games every year, as the industry begins to cater more to them instead of only targeting males age 13-30 with physically-impossible women clad in leather bikinis. Internet porn may well be a bigger problem for men than women, but this isn't due to some conspiracy; it's a simple consequence of men relying more heavily on audiovisual cues for arousal. Women, as a group, are just as addicted to their preferred form of pornography--the euphemistically-named "romance novel" genre, which perpetuates ideas about relationships and sex that are often just as ridiculous, exaggerated, fetishistic, violence-endorsing, and generally out of touch with reality as porn videos.
      Lots of ladies have patted you on the back for your tremendous white knighting here. I'm not buying it. You sound like a male that hasn't been able to gain a great deal of power and freedom in your life, so you try to explain to others that you nor any other male deserves any of it. Just my personal analysis since you think I am a sexist pig who should write for the Onion.

      -No one is claiming the feminists planned on feminizing boys. The women got too much power, and our culture as a whole became too feminized as a result.

      -Physical aggression plays a quiet role that appears useless 99% of the time until you actually need it. It does play a role, but that had no part in my argument. My main points about masculinity involved scientific reasoning, innovation, leadership, drive to succeed, and physical capability relating to labor.

      -Give me a break about 'invading countries with brown people'. The Middle East hates us, and would destroy us if they could. This is not simply related to our stay there; they hated us before. Our soldiers have still been forced to maintain the "Rules of Engagement" that have made us very courteous occupiers. I could go on, but I will stop. This topic could be a thread in itself.

      -I don't care how an individual child behaves. I care how our society behaves as a group. Don't play the "poor little child who's different" card, and get on the topic of our society. Is it okay to you that we are slowly losing qualities from our society that once made us great?

      ***PS guys: This site seems to keep blocking my IP address. If I drop out of this forum, I guess you will know why.
      Last edited by wiltondeportes; 11-13-2012, 01:21 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by bloodorchid View Post
        wilton.

        how long has it been since women could wipe their own asses without a man's permission?

        what's 2+2=

        stop reading the internet and get some real life experience with people of all genders
        Is that seriously the best reply you could come up with? Making emotional statements will not help your case. In fact, they just confirm me even more.

        Comment


        • If that's what you call emotional then maybe you're trolololo funnier than i thought
          beautiful
          yeah you are

          Baby if you time travel back far enough you can avoid that work because the dust won't be there. You're too pretty to be working that hard.
          lol

          Comment


          • Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
            Ok, physical labor has been conceded. Thank you.

            Why would women be as capable as men in scientific reasoning or leadership? These have always been male-dominated areas. Look back over all of recorded history. That's over 6,000 years for those counting at home. How many women have invented something extraordinary or made a scientific breakthrough? How many have commanded the respect of their peers?

            The assumed state of things is not that all genders are equal. Since the beginning of us being human, I believe there were gender roles. This lead to differing evolution between the sexes.
            How long have women been able to control if/when/how many children they had? How long have women been allowed to work outside the home? We are finally at a place in time when women have the right to educate themselves, make their own life decisions, own property, drive, have jobs. When brute strength ruled women were at a disadvantage. Now that the playing field is leveling women are making great strides. There is still the problem of how to balance family with a career and some women are opting out of the former, but they can these days. A friend of mine is a research scientist at the NIH. Received the offer before she even finished her PHD in the junctions of biology, physics and chemistry. She's brilliant, but almost didn't get into the sciences because of how she didn't want to be the "smart one". She has super supportive parents who are incredibly proud of her, but even in this environment, social pressure almost made her choose a less demanding study. She's also chosen not to have children and instead devote her life to her career. How many women have this supportive an environment and are willing to make this choice? THIS is what keeps women out of STEM careers and leadership positions.
            Buy house, Demolish house, Build house.

            Comment


            • I think its weird that people look at the past with such rose color glasses.

              I would rather be a woman today than one back in 1200 BC, 1692, 1880 or even 1950. We have SO MANY choices now for men and women that used to not be available. You can absolutely go live primitively and serve your husband who kills you meat and expects you to make babies. Or you can be a single entrepreneur. And same for men- they have choices. If you like living off the land and being a manly man, move to Alaska. But if you want to be a stay at home dad you can do that too.

              If what other people do frustrates you, chances are you are unhappy with your own choices. My being a professional, childless woman with a good career does not stop you from being a man that has dominion over his wife... just don't date or marry me. Find one of the many women very happy to serve her provider and take one of the jobs that relies on brute force and strength to enable yourself to serve your wife. There are PLENTY of opportunities to be in a group that limits women to traditional roles.

              http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
              Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                We are on the same page, AmyMac. It takes a real woman to admit that she is a woman.


                Lots of ladies have patted you on the back for your tremendous white knighting here. I'm not buying it. You sound like a male that hasn't been able to gain a great deal of power and freedom in your life, so you try to explain to others that you nor any other male deserves any of it. Just my personal analysis since you think I am a sexist pig who should write for the Onion.

                -No one is claiming the feminists planned on feminizing boys. The women got too much power, and our culture as a whole became too feminized as a result.

                -Physical aggression plays a quiet role that appears useless 99% of the time until you actually need it. It does play a role, but that had no part in my argument. My main points about masculinity involved scientific reasoning, innovation, leadership, drive to succeed, and physical capability relating to labor.

                -Give me a break about 'invading countries with brown people'. The Middle East hates us, and would destroy us if they could. This is not simply related to our stay there; they hated us before. Our soldiers have still been forced to maintain the "Rules of Engagement" that have made us very courteous occupiers. I could go on, but I will stop. This topic could be a thread in itself.

                -I don't care how an individual child behaves. I care how our society behaves as a group. Don't play the "poor little child who's different" card, and get on the topic of our society. Is it okay to you that we are slowly losing qualities from our society that once made us great?

                ***PS guys: This site seems to keep blocking my IP address. If I drop out of this forum, I guess you will know why.
                Lol, everyone on this site is gonna hate you, but you get it. Guys are such pussies these days.

                Comment


                • Well, jmo, but "pussies" who can put on a suit and make six figures are the alpha males in this culture. Men who can keep up with a smart female are hot.

                  In real life I find that the men who beat their chests the most and make fun of feminism or "girly men" are over compensating for some kind of failure. Kind of like 8th grade educated skinheads who blame all those "foreigners" for taking their jobs.
                  "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

                  B*tch-lite

                  Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

                  Comment


                  • A lot of you people don't live in the real world.

                    I work on a university campus. I can tell you there are lots of female engineers and computer scientists and bioengineering researchers coming up through the ranks. Only a hundred years ago it was thought that it was dangerous to a woman's health to go to college.

                    Men are only becoming feminized because our entire culture is becoming infantilized by television and advertising. Instant gratification has a way of keeping men (and women) weak and dependent. And of course, these qualities are confused with the feminine, when instead they are the qualities of children.
                    Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post

                      Men are only becoming feminized because our entire culture is becoming infantilized by television and advertising. Instant gratification has a way of keeping men (and women) weak and dependent. And of course, these qualities are confused with the feminine, when instead they are the qualities of children.
                      Well said. The whole dominant culture is designed to create dependency, it has nothing to do with gender. To point to gender just divides us further and sheds no light on the situation.

                      Wilton I think you are smarter than that, dig a little deeper and see who would benefit from an entire population of dependent adults acting like children and pointing fingers at one another and blaming each other for the mess they're in. You can't possibly believe that women haven't contributed significantly to our culture because they are less capable, because then you'd have to say the same for minorities too. I am disappointed in you I thought you had better critical thinking skills.
                      Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

                      Comment


                      • -Give me a break about 'invading countries with brown people'. The Middle East hates us, and would destroy us if they could. This is not simply related to our stay there; they hated us before. Our soldiers have still been forced to maintain the "Rules of Engagement" that have made us very courteous occupiers. I could go on, but I will stop. This topic could be a thread in itself.
                        The funny thing is that our brains.... not our brawn could destroy those nations immediately.

                        I think that it is evolution that we have become more rational and learned when and where to withhold power. And well, you want a society where women have no power.... look at the middle east. Is it that great for the men over there that women are subserviant? Is that how you want to live? Yeah, you can have ultimate freedom and power over your wife... and you are probably going to be quite frustrated as some mullah with a whacked agenda is the one with power over you, so yippee, go home and beat your wife because you have no food and no job.

                        http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                        Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                          Lots of ladies have patted you on the back for your tremendous white knighting here. I'm not buying it. You sound like a male that hasn't been able to gain a great deal of power and freedom in your life, so you try to explain to others that you nor any other male deserves any of it. Just my personal analysis since you think I am a sexist pig who should write for the Onion.
                          You sound like a male who is threatened by change. Fear is not strength, and sexism is not masculinity. Just my personal analysis.

                          Adapt or die, Wilton.

                          By the by, I'm not white knighting. I'm defending my own deeply held beliefs. It is actually possible for a man to be rational, logical and even self-interested, and believe in gender equality and tolerance. The fact that women responded positively to this, while nonessential to my arguments, might tell you something about how you come off to roughly half the population, who by the way have viewpoints that are exactly as valid as yours.

                          And I have all the power I need in my life, which is power over myself and the respect of those I care for. Anyone who feels they need more than that is on the path to becoming a tyrant, in my opinion.

                          Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                          -No one is claiming the feminists planned on feminizing boys. The women got too much power, and our culture as a whole became too feminized as a result.
                          Citation. Needed. You need to demonstrate, with actual, reliable data, 1) that women hold a disproportionate amount of power over our laws and/or culture compared to men and 2) that this influence has and/or is currently being used to "feminize" the male populace. This would also involve defining your terms well enough that feminization could be actually measured and compared to some sort of historical standard. Good luck!

                          Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                          -Physical aggression plays a quiet role that appears useless 99% of the time until you actually need it.
                          I argue that aggression, which by most definitions involves the initiation of force or threats, is never necessary. Violence is only ever justified in defense against aggression. If you are trying to say that you believe the use of physical force, or the threat thereof, is sometimes the best solution to aggression by others, then I am happy to agree with you on that score. I never claimed otherwise. All men and women should be prepared to fight force with force--to behave otherwise is to invite attack and exploitation.

                          Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                          It does play a role, but that had no part in my argument. My main points about masculinity involved scientific reasoning, innovation, leadership, drive to succeed, and physical capability relating to labor.
                          Putting aside the fact that physical labor capacity is largely irrelevant in a society where the number of occupations requiring significant physical strength is decreasing as machines steadily replace humans in these roles, and is already very small, your idea that women are less rational, less innovative, less capable as leaders and less ambitious as a group is another big-ass unsupported argument. Again, citation needed. Prove to me that these stereotypes are something inherent about women and not an unfortunate relic of a culture that has only recently decided women should be allowed to do much of anything at all--women couldn't even vote in this country when my grandmother was born! Just look at the relative poverty rates of American blacks compared to American whites, 150 years after slavery ended, to see how long these kinds of historical inequalities can keep affecting the descendants of those oppressed--unless you'd like to claim that blacks are inherently less rational, capable and ambitious, as you already have for women? We shouldn't be surprised to see gender inequalities in traditionally male-dominated fields--which until very recently, as in since you and I were born, was ALL professional fields--even if women would be equally capable and willing to pursue them in some imaginary world free of gender bias.

                          Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                          -Give me a break about 'invading countries with brown people'. The Middle East hates us, and would destroy us if they could. This is not simply related to our stay there; they hated us before. Our soldiers have still been forced to maintain the "Rules of Engagement" that have made us very courteous occupiers. I could go on, but I will stop. This topic could be a thread in itself.
                          No, I'm not going to give you a break, because you just brought the stupid again. Regardless of whether the Middle East hates us (which, while it may be the case now, was not always, and I think you vastly underestimate the radicalizing effect half a century of our violent meddling has had on the region--look up the WWII and Cold War-era history of Afghanistan and Iran, for instance), they are by and large not a credible threat to us or any of our allies, with the possible exception of Iran in the case that they manage to complete their nuclear program. If any Middle East country wanted to start a real war with the Western world, they would be blown off the map in a few hours. The force capabilities of the two groups are not even comparable. You are essentially arguing that it's permissible to lob an active grenade at a child who is throwing a tantrum and bit your leg because "he started it". Grow the fuck up.

                          As for "courteous occupiers" bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Let's talk about Iraq. We invaded this country on false pretenses and blew up all their major infrastructure, killing tens of thousands of completely non-violent civilians in the process and crippling the economic prospects of millions more. We then engaged in years of brutal ground warfare, killing tens or hundreds of thousands more Iraqis while losing "only" a few thousand men and women on our side. Of course many previously non-violent people took up arms to resist our invasion, as I expect I would do in their place--we were destroying their homes and killing their families in an unjustified war of aggression. Sure, we've been helping them rebuild their roads and government, but what recompense could we possibly offer to the families of the multitudes we've killed? Nothing we do will ever bring back their loved ones, and for that many of them will justifiably hate us, likely for generations, where they might not have done before.

                          So yeah, I'm sure they're just chuffed that our oh-so-courteous soldiers were so downright decent as to follow the rules (sometimes) when they were slaughtering children by machine gun from a helicopter in the name of freedom and democracy.

                          Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                          -I don't care how an individual child behaves. I care how our society behaves as a group. Don't play the "poor little child who's different" card, and get on the topic of our society.
                          "Society", of course, is made up of many individuals. Each of whom, I believe, is entitled to behave in whatever way they see fit in their own lives. If these individual changes add up to a wholesale shift in societal expectations and behavior, so be it. It's happened a million times before and it will happen a million times more, if we're fortunate enough to be around that much longer. Constant cultural change hasn't killed us off yet and I don't expect it will.

                          Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                          Is it okay to you that we are slowly losing qualities from our society that once made us great?
                          The world is not the same today as it was yesterday, and it will be different again tomorrow. You are yearning for a golden age that never existed. As I said before, adapt or die. This is evolution, and you can't go backwards, but you can get left behind.
                          Last edited by Uncephalized; 11-13-2012, 04:38 PM.
                          Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

                          My Primal Journal

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Zulma5100
                            I'm completely aware of the historical and anthropological status of the masculine and feminine morphing and blurring lines. I was curious about what people thought.
                            I grew up in the 70's when it was academia (and politically correct social pressure) had been pushing that male/female gender roles were socially imprinted. At that time feminists had been burning their bras https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcS3QevoG0g and stopped putting on makeup. The fashion industry even responded by tailoring women's businees suits patterned after the traditional male suit.

                            Fancyneck's Blog | Welcome to FANCYLAND!
                            1970’s – equal pay brings confidence!
                            This was an important time for women in the workplace. However the fashion was a little stuffy – despite Karl Lagerfield being the designer of the moment, power suits were all the rage as were blazers and elasticated trousers!



                            That was the image of feminism. Then sometime around the 80's the image of feminism changed, and maybe for political reason of wanting to appeal to a broader female base. I remember Gloria Allred in a news interview saying something of the affect "Well of course we want to be feminine....After all we are women." Then into the 90's I started hearing "We have to get men in touch with their feminine side." From my POV feminism went full circle but the underlying opinion was still the same in that gender roles are socially imprinted.

                            Question: Are gender roles socially imprinted or are they genetically imprinted by millions of years of evolution? Right around the same time as the 90s books were being published questioning the socially/politically correct paradigm: Brain Sex: The Real Difference Between Men and Women: Anne Moir, David Jessel: 9780385311830: Amazon.com: Books. (There are more book listing at the bottom of that Amazon page.) The argument that general roles are genetic came out the neurosciences (such as Brain Sex by Anne Moir). I put up a yahoo link a few pages back with a debate between the neuroscience scientists and social scientists.

                            What I've noticed over the past 30-40 years is that with the political-social pressure of evening out gender roles (colleges trying to attract more women into engineering) those stereotypical differences have remained stubbornly the same.

                            Tribal societies traditionally have Male Right of Passage rituals. Mythologist Joseph Campbell talked about this in The Power of Myth with Bill Moyers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU He argued that these right of passages from boy into the male community had a civilizing affect on the boys by positively channeling that testosterone into becoming responsible members of the community https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mByW8hsCXE. Modern industrial societies no longer have these rituals. They do, however, seem to negatively appear in frat hazing and gang initiation rituals.

                            Are there males and females who don't seem to fit the gender role? Sure. You will always have outliers from the norm.

                            Behavioral Neuroscience: Sex Differences in Brain and Behavior

                            Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

                            Comment


                            • The middle east hates us with very good reason: neverending imperialist aggression. It's been happening for so long that the hatred is practically embedded in their culture.

                              and just lol @ courteous occupiers

                              Just sayin. If 9/11 had landed on a military target (coughpentagoncough) instead of civilian, it would have been a perfectly justified response to aggression. If anything, they've been exceedingly patient with us over the years.
                              “The whole concept of a macronutrient, like that of a calorie, is determining our language game in such a way that the conversation is not making sense." - Dr. Kurt Harris

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Chaohinon View Post
                                The middle east hates us with very good reason: neverending imperialist aggression. It's been happening for so long that the hatred is practically embedded in their culture.

                                and just lol @ courteous occupiers

                                Just sayin. If 9/11 had landed on a military target (coughpentagoncough) instead of civilian, it would have been a perfectly justified response to aggression. If anything, they've been exceedingly patient with us over the years.
                                Word.
                                Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

                                My Primal Journal

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X